Begotten Before All Ages

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
User avatar
steve
Posts: 3381
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by steve » Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:29 am

The "today" of Psalm 2:7 is the day of Christ's resurrection from the dead, according to Acts 13:33:
God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’
It is interesting that, in all of Paul's sermon in Acts 13, other than in this citation, where sonship is not the point Paul is seeking to prove, the sonship of Christ is not mentioned once (Jesus is merely referred to as "a Savior—Jesus"). In verse 33 (cited above), Paul does not quote Psalm 2 as a proof of Jesus' sonship (since this is not the point he is seeking to establish in the citation), but as a proof of Christ's resurrection.

That Jesus was "begotten" as "firstborn" from the dead is also affirmed in Col.1:18 and Rev.1:5:
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
The concept is expressed in different imagery in 1 Corinthians 15:20:
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
There were no days before the creation of the world (Genesis 1:5). "This day I have begotten you," was the day Jesus emerged from the grave as the first one of "many brethren" to be born into the New Creation (Romans 8:29):
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.


.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5280
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by Paidion » Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:13 pm

Trinitarians and others make every attempt to explain it away (with several different "explanations") but the fact remains as is recorded in Colossians 1:15:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

commonsense
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:25 pm

Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by commonsense » Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:57 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:07 am
Not really. I think you are unnecessarily trying to associate the "priesthoods" into this passage, but I also don't believe it is really about an actual "political" struggle at the time, but (as stated in the text itself), it is an allegory -- explaining a spiritual reality much as Paul presents in Romans 9-11 about the true Israel. But, regardless, I fail to see how this relates to the aspect of when Jesus was begotten and which period of time is in view in each of the relevant verses talking about his "creation," his birth, his baptism/anointing, resurrection, etc.
Darin, it is an allegory as you state. The Levitical law and their priesthood didn't exist in Abraham's time. But there were beliefs in foreign gods. The Levitical law represents the ways of foreign gods. Through this law the people of Israel had returned to Egypt. They didn't physically return to Egypt, but foreign ways entered in.
It wasn't a political struggle, but spiritual warfare between the ways of God and the ways of man.
When Jesus was born, Israel was about to be COMPLETELY destroyed because they didn't continue in the way that was given to Abraham. As the prophets say, "they went backwards and not forward" and fell from grace. What was created through Jesus was a "new Jerusalem", a "new Israel" a new body of God's people resurrected from the dead.

commonsense
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:25 pm

Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by commonsense » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:35 am

commonsense wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:57 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:07 am
Not really. I think you are unnecessarily trying to associate the "priesthoods" into this passage, but I also don't believe it is really about an actual "political" struggle at the time, but (as stated in the text itself), it is an allegory -- explaining a spiritual reality much as Paul presents in Romans 9-11 about the true Israel. But, regardless, I fail to see how this relates to the aspect of when Jesus was begotten and which period of time is in view in each of the relevant verses talking about his "creation," his birth, his baptism/anointing, resurrection, etc.
Darin, it is an allegory as you state. The Levitical law and their priesthood didn't exist in Abraham's time. But there were beliefs in foreign gods. The Levitical law represents the ways of foreign gods. Through this law the people of Israel had returned to Egypt. They didn't physically return to Egypt, but foreign ways entered in.
It wasn't a political struggle, but spiritual warfare between the ways of God and the ways of man.
When Jesus was born, Israel was about to be COMPLETELY destroyed because they didn't continue in the way that was given to Abraham. As the prophets say, "they went backwards and not forward" and fell from grace. What was created through Jesus was a "new Jerusalem", a "new Israel" a new body of God's people resurrected from the dead.

I'm just curious, why do you think we no longer follow the Levitical law?

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 2573
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by darinhouston » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:23 am

commonsense wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:35 am
I'm just curious, why do you think we no longer follow the Levitical law?
Well, we do still follow some of it. Most of it we don't follow (or aren't required to in any event) because Jesus is our Lord and has established the New Covenant, fulfilling all of the Old Covenant which was there to protect and preserve (and maintain as separate) the nation/people of Israel until Christ could come and fulfill his predestined role. We do still follow some of it because the Law of Christ has repeated it and in most ways elaborated on it to focus on the deeper spiritual aspect that we are to follow and the underlying heart issues. Those who follow the Levitical law (as opposed to Christ) find death, even in the striving to follow it. Those who follow the law of Christ find life (even in the following of it).

dwight92070
Posts: 932
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:34 am

Looking in the Strong's Concordance, we see the word "firstborn" is used 9 times in the New Testament:

Luke 2:7 and Luke 2:23 refer to Jesus being Mary's first child.

Colossians 1:15,18 - "the firstborn of all creation" in verse 15 is explained for us in verse 18: "and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead." So "firstborn" here in both verse 15 and 18 refers to the fact that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead with a glorified, immortal body."

Hebrews 1:6 "And when He again brings the firstborn into the world ..." is made clear by the context in verses 3-5: "...When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, ..." So we see He has been raised from the dead here. So verse 6 appears to be a reference to His second coming: "when He AGAIN brings the firstborn (from the dead) into the world, ..."

Hebrews 11:28 obviously refers to the firstborn child of each Israelite family being protected at the Passover.

Hebrews 12:23 "the church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, ..." So these are saints who have already been resurrected with their glorified, immortal bodies.

Revelation 1:5 "... and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, ..." Another reference to Jesus" resurrection with His glorified, immortal body. Others were raised from the dead before Him, but He was the first to be raised with an incorruptible body and we will follow Him and possess the same.

Romans 8:29 says that He would be "the firstborn among many brethren; ..." and verse 30 says concerning these brethren - "He also glorified." When were they glorified? At their resurrection, when they received their glorified, immortal bodies.

So six out of the nine references to the firstborn in the New Testament refer to the resurrection from the dead with a glorified, immortal body.

My conclusion is that the focus of the controversy, Colossians 1:15, should be interpreted using all the other verses, to give us understanding. When we do that, we see that the "firstborn of all creation" is NOT DIFFERENT in meaning than all the other verses - that is, He is the firstborn from the dead.

It wouldn't make sense for Paul and the author of Hebrews to use "firstborn" one way five times, but then, use it a sixth time, with a totally different meaning. Scripture interprets scripture.

dwight92070
Posts: 932
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:17 am

Also, did you catch Steve's excellent point about Acts 13:33-34? It is worth repeating.

There were NO DAYS before the creation week. So why would God say, "TODAY I have begotten You.." before ANY days even existed? The obvious answer is that God spoke these words sometime AFTER creation, ON A PARTICULAR DAY. Paul tells us THE EXACT DAY when God spoke these words - when He raised Jesus from the dead. He was not "begotten before all ages".

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 2573
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by darinhouston » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:42 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:17 am
Also, did you catch Steve's excellent point about Acts 13:33-34? It is worth repeating.

There were NO DAYS before the creation week. So why would God say, "TODAY I have begotten You.." before ANY days even existed? The obvious answer is that God spoke these words sometime AFTER creation, ON A PARTICULAR DAY. Paul tells us THE EXACT DAY when God spoke these words - when He raised Jesus from the dead. He was not "begotten before all ages".
I tend to agree with you and Steve on this one. It can be difficult with these temporal statements made by God to determine what time period is in view when past and present tense are used. This is also one of the complications in being dogmatic on some of the "pre-existence" texts, of course.

The fact that different terms are used for firstborn and only/unique begotten, however, does seem to suggest a difference between the two - the one perhaps being a title (firstborn) that he achieves at his resurrection and the other (begotten) being more existential (something that defines his nature or character or how he came about). John 3:16 uses the term in a way that suggests he was already begotten when his life was given (which is certainly before his resurrection unless these temporal references aren't literal).

commonsense
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:25 pm

Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by commonsense » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:31 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:23 am
commonsense wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:35 am
I'm just curious, why do you think we no longer follow the Levitical law?
Well, we do still follow some of it. Most of it we don't follow (or aren't required to in any event) because Jesus is our Lord and has established the New Covenant, fulfilling all of the Old Covenant which was there to protect and preserve (and maintain as separate) the nation/people of Israel until Christ could come and fulfill his predestined role. We do still follow some of it because the Law of Christ has repeated it and in most ways elaborated on it to focus on the deeper spiritual aspect that we are to follow and the underlying heart issues. Those who follow the Levitical law (as opposed to Christ) find death, even in the striving to follow it. Those who follow the law of Christ find life (even in the following of it).
Darin, Jesus didn't fulfill the Levitical law. He fulfilled the Law of God that was given to Abraham. As Galatians says, there were two covenants- one of the bondwoman representing those of the flesh, following foreign gods. Jesus himself says, "You teach doctrines of men."

As the new Testament writers say, " All were baptized into Moses and all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink from the Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ ( The Law of Christ). But this was rejected by some who refused to leave their foreign gods behind.

Yes, the sons of God existed prior to Jesus. They were collectively known as Israel, people begotten by God, born of the Spirit and the word of God (that was established in Abraham. These people "died" because as the parable of the sower and the see says, some fell by the wayside, some fell on rocks, some fell on thorns. But the seed that fell on good ground was later persecuted and slaughtered.

"Today I have begotten You.", was also said to David.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5280
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by Paidion » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:05 pm

Dwight wrote:Colossians 1:15,18 - "the firstborn of all creation" in verse 15 is explained for us in verse 18: "and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead." So "firstborn" here in both verse 15 and 18 refers to the fact that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead with a glorified, immortal body."
Nope. In verse 15, he is said to be "the firstborn of all creation". In verse 18, he is said to be "the firstborn from the dead".
These are TWO DIFFERENT SENSES of his being "the firstborn". Verse 18 is NOT an explanation of verse 15!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Post Reply

Return to “Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology”