Begotten Before All Ages

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Homer
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Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by Homer » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:45 am

Darin,

You wrote:
Paidion, I'm truly interested in where this notion comes from apart from John 1:1. "In the beginning" can refer to a number of "beginnings" (the least likely being so-called eternity past or -- if you prefer -- the point in the beginning of time when God first acts).
God created:

Genesis 1:1
New American Standard Bible
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The Word (personal) created:

John 1:1-3
New American Standard Bible
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

In my opinion John refers to Genesis 1:1 in John 1:1-3, providing additional information, i.e. the involvement of the Word in creation. I believe every act of creation is described as "God spoke", perfectly fitting with "The Word". To me the conclusion is unavoidable.

dwight92070
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Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:44 am

Paidon,

It appears to me, from your first post on this topic, that the foundation for your doctrinal conclusion is the writings of the second century Christians. You also used the Nicene Creed and information from a Catholic Mass. Towards the end of your post you quoted Justin Martyr extensively. But are any of these sources as reliable as the word of God itself? If you had used ONLY scripture, could you still come up with your same conclusions? You did mention three scriptures, Psalm 2, Acts 13, and Colossians 1:15 to "confirm" your conclusion. In fact, you said that you did reach a conclusion originally, using ONLY the Bible. Your conclusion was that Jesus was begotten in the womb of Mary. Using ONLY the Bible, that is exactly my conclusion.

But isn't this the opposite of what we are supposed to do? Are we not supposed to get our doctrine ONLY from the word of God? Isn't this also why one of the requirements for the canon of the New Testament, was that it must have been written by an apostle, or a close associate of an apostle?

2 Timothy 3:16 "All SCRIPTURE is inspired by God and profitable for teaching (doctrine), for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

I think we need to follow Jesus' example: "It is written ... it is written ... it is written" , referring to the word of God.

Isaiah 8:20 "To the law (teaching) and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn."

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darinhouston
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Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by darinhouston » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:21 am

commonsense wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:42 am
darinhouston wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:06 am
I've been thinking more about the term "son of God" in connection with monogones. There are quite a few places where "we" or others are called sons of God or that we will become sons of God (e.g., John 1:12). So, is it conceivable that this term monogenes isn't really a metaphysical or ontological term but is really trying to suggest that Jesus was not "like us" in the sense that we could "become" sons of God, but that (unlike us) he was unique and was already in that ethical condition from birth and remained that way through his obedience
Darin, if this is so, then why did Jesus need the Holy Spirit to descend upon Him and why would he be transformed on the mount?
Perhaps being free from sin and fully aligned with and in communion with the Father did not require the baptism by the Holy Spirit descending on and anointing him with the fullness of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit may well have empowered him to fulfill his mission and given him the power he used in his ministry. That doesn't mean that this is what made him "Son." I see no reason to deny he was EVER not the Son, at least during his lifetime. Empowered by the spirit for ministry is somewhat different.

Hebrews 5 tells us that "Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9And having been perfected, He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him." So, his "Sonship" does not seem to be something he "attained to," it seems to be inherent in who he was. His perfection, however, seems to have resulted from his obedience to the point of the cross (translations vary on this point). The spirit was given to enable and assist him in that, and he did it by being faithful to his Father and relying on that spirit.

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darinhouston
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Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by darinhouston » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:27 am

Homer wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:45 am
Darin,

You wrote:
Paidion, I'm truly interested in where this notion comes from apart from John 1:1. "In the beginning" can refer to a number of "beginnings" (the least likely being so-called eternity past or -- if you prefer -- the point in the beginning of time when God first acts).
God created:

Genesis 1:1
New American Standard Bible
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The Word (personal) created:

John 1:1-3
New American Standard Bible
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

In my opinion John refers to Genesis 1:1 in John 1:1-3, providing additional information, i.e. the involvement of the Word in creation. I believe every act of creation is described as "God spoke", perfectly fitting with "The Word". To me the conclusion is unavoidable.
Thanks, Homer. I actually alluded to that passage in John 1. But, "In the beginning," though clearly drawing from Genesis 1 has been seen by some as a rhetorical device in connection with the "New Creation" in view by John. But, even if it's the beginning of "Creation" of our Universe and everything in it -- the beginning of material existence as we know it, that isn't the same thing (to my mind) as the "FIRST" of God's acts. Did the angels and heavenly realms not exist prior to the "Big Bang" (or however God created our reality)? Was God just a "cosmic hum" until he begot the Son? What about the Holy Spirit?

commonsense
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Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by commonsense » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:22 am

darinhouston wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:21 am
Perhaps being free from sin and fully aligned with and in communion with the Father did not require the baptism by the Holy Spirit descending on and anointing him with the fullness of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit may well have empowered him to fulfill his mission and given him the power he used in his ministry. That doesn't mean that this is what made him "Son." I see no reason to deny he was EVER not the Son, at least during his lifetime. Empowered by the spirit for ministry is somewhat different.
Darin, Sonship is through the Spirit. Jesus was born of the Spirit and obeyed God's word. This is what made Him Son.
"So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him;" You are my Son, TODAY I have begotten You."

He may have been a Son of Man, but to be a Son of God, one must be born of the Spirit of God in obedience to His word.

There were many who came to power and inherited thrones by different methods - for example, being the physical son of the king, or an imaginary god got had a son with one of your human ancestors etc.etc. This is NOT how you inherit the kingdom of the One true God. There's only one way which is through the Spirit and and obedience to the word.

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darinhouston
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Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by darinhouston » Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:25 am

commonsense wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:22 am
darinhouston wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:21 am
Perhaps being free from sin and fully aligned with and in communion with the Father did not require the baptism by the Holy Spirit descending on and anointing him with the fullness of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit may well have empowered him to fulfill his mission and given him the power he used in his ministry. That doesn't mean that this is what made him "Son." I see no reason to deny he was EVER not the Son, at least during his lifetime. Empowered by the spirit for ministry is somewhat different.
Darin, Sonship is through the Spirit. Jesus was born of the Spirit and obeyed God's word. This is what made Him Son.
"So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him;" You are my Son, TODAY I have begotten You."

He may have been a Son of Man, but to be a Son of God, one must be born of the Spirit of God in obedience to His word.

There were many who came to power and inherited thrones by different methods - for example, being the physical son of the king, or an imaginary god got had a son with one of your human ancestors etc.etc. This is NOT how you inherit the kingdom of the One true God. There's only one way which is through the Spirit and and obedience to the word.
This has never been very clear to me. Certainly, in one sense being God's Son is something that is associated (at least for us) with gaining the Spirit. But, I do think Jesus was a special case -- monogenes - uniquely begotten in his nature upon birth having no sin and being able to have communion with the spirit separate from his anointing at his baptism with the receiving of the Holy Spirit in another sense. I think this notion was also discussed in different ways - for example, in Revelation it seems his resurrection was considered a "begetting" in another sense as the first begotten of the dead - leading the way for how we can be begotten in our own resurrection. It's not entirely clear to me otherwise and is worthy of further study and contemplation.

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Paidion
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Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by Paidion » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:57 pm

As I understand it the "today" in "Today I have begotten you" refers to the "today" at the beginning of time, when the Father begat the son as his first act.

Clearly it DOESN'T refer to the resurrection of Jesus.

Acts 13:
32 And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers,
33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, "’You are my Son, today I have begotten you.’
34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way, "’I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’


Verse 33 could be interpreted that as the resurrection of Jesus being his begotten, but verse 34 negates that interpretation with the words "And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead...", indicating that the fact of the resurrection of Jesus is a different matter.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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commonsense
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Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by commonsense » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:43 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:57 pm
As I understand it the "today" in "Today I have begotten you" refers to the "today" at the beginning of time, when the Father begat the son as his first act.
Paidion, I believe that the Today is the day that you become a new creation by "putting off the old man", forsaking our old ways and live according to the Spirit. That's when we receive the blessing of God- "You are My Son in whom I am well pleased." This "day" is different for everyone. I think it can be both individual as well as collective.

commonsense
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Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by commonsense » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:43 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:25 am
This has never been very clear to me. Certainly, in one sense being God's Son is something that is associated (at least for us) with gaining the Spirit. But, I do think Jesus was a special case -- monogenes - uniquely begotten in his nature upon birth having no sin and being able to have communion with the spirit separate from his anointing at his baptism with the receiving of the Holy Spirit in another sense. I think this notion was also discussed in different ways - for example, in Revelation it seems his resurrection was considered a "begetting" in another sense as the first begotten of the dead - leading the way for how we can be begotten in our own resurrection. It's not entirely clear to me otherwise and is worthy of further study and contemplation.
Darin, it might be helpful to understand what was going on in Israel at the time Jesus was born.
In reading Galatians 4:21-31, there seems to be a struggle between two different "sons" of Israel.
There were two different priesthoods, those of the Levitical priesthood ( of the flesh) and those of the priesthood of Mel (of the Spirit).
Those of the Spirit were OUTNUMBERED by those of the flesh.

Hopefully this helps.

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darinhouston
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Re: Begotten Before All Ages

Post by darinhouston » Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:07 am

commonsense wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:43 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:25 am
This has never been very clear to me. Certainly, in one sense being God's Son is something that is associated (at least for us) with gaining the Spirit. But, I do think Jesus was a special case -- monogenes - uniquely begotten in his nature upon birth having no sin and being able to have communion with the spirit separate from his anointing at his baptism with the receiving of the Holy Spirit in another sense. I think this notion was also discussed in different ways - for example, in Revelation it seems his resurrection was considered a "begetting" in another sense as the first begotten of the dead - leading the way for how we can be begotten in our own resurrection. It's not entirely clear to me otherwise and is worthy of further study and contemplation.
Darin, it might be helpful to understand what was going on in Israel at the time Jesus was born.
In reading Galatians 4:21-31, there seems to be a struggle between two different "sons" of Israel.
There were two different priesthoods, those of the Levitical priesthood ( of the flesh) and those of the priesthood of Mel (of the Spirit).
Those of the Spirit were OUTNUMBERED by those of the flesh.

Hopefully this helps.
Not really. I think you are unnecessarily trying to associate the "priesthoods" into this passage, but I also don't believe it is really about an actual "political" struggle at the time, but (as stated in the text itself), it is an allegory -- explaining a spiritual reality much as Paul presents in Romans 9-11 about the true Israel. But, regardless, I fail to see how this relates to the aspect of when Jesus was begotten and which period of time is in view in each of the relevant verses talking about his "creation," his birth, his baptism/anointing, resurrection, etc.

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