How Many Gods are there?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

How Many Gods are there?

Post by Paidion » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:13 pm

How Many Gods Are There?

I don't remember whether I previously posted the following article or not. I tried doing a search for it — without success. So I thought I would post it anyway. If you have already read it, you can either ignore it, or reread it.

Every Christian I have encountered believes that there is one God only.
Many believe that this one God exists as a Trinity of persons. However, all instances in the New Testament of the word θεος (god) preceded by the article (the God) and with no other modifiers, has as its referent the Father alone, and NEVER a Trinity.

Jesus in His prayer to the Father, called Him “the only true God” and in the same sentence referred to Himself as someone other than the only true God.

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (John 17:3 ESV)

If Jesus had said, 'that they know You, Me, and the Holy Spirit as the only true God', then it would be clear that He believed in the Trinity of which He would have been a part.

However what Jesus did say, indicates that He believed in only one true God.

Clearly, the apostle Paul also believed that there was only one God—the Father, and did not indicate Jesus as being that one God or part of that one God, but as someone other than that one God:

... for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV)

(There is) one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:6 ESV)

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
(1 Timothy 2:5 ESV)


Elohiym is a plural noun in Hebrew, the singular of which is “Elowahh.” The word “God” frequently appears in the Old Testament in the singular form “Elowahh.” Here is one example:

They refused to obey, And they were not mindful of Your wonders That You did among them. But they hardened their necks, And in their rebellion They appointed a leader To return to their bondage. But You are God (Elowahh), Ready to pardon, Gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, Abundant in kindness, And did not forsake them. (Nehemiah 9:17)

But strangely, the plural form of the word also appears to have been applied to God. Perhaps the most unusual example is found in Psalm 82:1. Here is the Douay translation (A Catholic translation that was published in 1609-1610)

God hath stood in the congregation of gods: and being in the midst of them he judgeth gods.
However, the word “he” doesn't occur in the Hebrew. Without it, the verse would read:

God hath stood in the congregation of gods: and being in the midst of them judgeth gods.

Now the peculiar matter is that in this verse both the first word and the last word is the plural “elohiym.” The second occurrence was translated “gods” in the Douay, whereas the first is translated “God.” Is there any justification in translating the word in these two different ways?
By the way, in the phrase “congregations of gods” a different Hebrew is used for “gods.” It is “el ale.” This is said to mean “god-like ones.”

You may be interested in the way the words appear in the Septuagint, a translation of the Hebrew into Greek around 300 B.C.

ο θεος εστη εν συναγωγη θεων εν μεσω δε θεους διακρινει

Literally in English this would read:
The God is in [the] synagogue of gods and judges gods.

So the translators of the Septuagint, obviously took the first “elohiym” to mean THE God, and the second to mean “gods,” that is, if they were translating from the same Hebrew text. However, they may have been translating from an older form of Hebrew such as was found in cave 4 of the Dead Sea scrolls, and the first word may have been the singular Hebrew word “elowahh.”
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:27 am

Paidion wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:13 pm
How Many Gods Are There?

Many believe that this one God exists as a Trinity of persons. However, all instances in the New Testament of the word θεος (god) preceded by the article (the God) and with no other modifiers, has as its referent the Father alone, and NEVER a Trinity.

Dwight - First of all, you have stated this, AS YOUR OPINION, before. But how can we know that this is a true AXIOM, other than you saying that it is?

Dwight - But let's assume that that is an axiom. Take the first mention of God in the New Testament, Matthew 1:23. "... they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, 'God with us.'" So Jesus, from His birth, was God (the Father) with us. You say, many others had that name or a similar name, but the others were not born into this world the way He was, they were not sinless as He was, they did not atone for the sins of all mankind as He did, they did not speak the way He did, and they did not live the way He did. So, "God with us", in His case, means just that.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by Paidion » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:15 pm

Dwight, you wrote:Matthew 1:23. "... they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, 'God with us.'" So Jesus, from His birth, was God (the Father) with us.
Your conclusion that Jesus was God the Father does not follow from the fact that his name is Immanuel (which means "God with us").
My name is "Donald" which means "world ruler". It does not follow from that fact, that I am the ruler of the world.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by darinhouston » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:58 pm

Paidion wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:15 pm
Dwight, you wrote:Matthew 1:23. "... they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, 'God with us.'" So Jesus, from His birth, was God (the Father) with us.
Your conclusion that Jesus was God the Father does not follow from the fact that his name is Immanuel (which means "God with us").
My name is "Donald" which means "world ruler". It does not follow from that fact, that I am the ruler of the world.
I assume Dwight mis-spoke - I'm not aware of any Trinitarians that believe Jesus is God (the Father).

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:39 am

Paidion wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:15 pm
Dwight, you wrote:Matthew 1:23. "... they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, 'God with us.'" So Jesus, from His birth, was God (the Father) with us.
Your conclusion that Jesus was God the Father does not follow from the fact that his name is Immanuel (which means "God with us").
My name is "Donald" which means "world ruler". It does not follow from that fact, that I am the ruler of the world.


[/quote

Obviously, but then you didn't atone for the sins of the world, live a sinless life, speak like no one else, and live like no one else. Jesus did, so to call His name Immanuel, or God with us, means just that.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:42 am

darinhouston wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:58 pm
Paidion wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:15 pm
Dwight, you wrote:Matthew 1:23. "... they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, 'God with us.'" So Jesus, from His birth, was God (the Father) with us.
Your conclusion that Jesus was God the Father does not follow from the fact that his name is Immanuel (which means "God with us").
My name is "Donald" which means "world ruler". It does not follow from that fact, that I am the ruler of the world.
I assume Dwight mis-spoke - I'm not aware of any Trinitarians that believe Jesus is God (the Father).
Dwight - Well, maybe I'm not your traditional Trinitarian. But don't they all believe in the Deity of Jesus? Does that not mean He is God?

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by darinhouston » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:03 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:42 am
I assume Dwight mis-spoke - I'm not aware of any Trinitarians that believe Jesus is God (the Father).

Dwight - Well, maybe I'm not your traditional Trinitarian. But don't they all believe in the Deity of Jesus? Does that not mean He is God?
I mean that he is the Father (your parenthetical usage suggests that you believe Jesus is actually the same as the Father).

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:30 pm

Well, if Jesus is God and the Father is God, then Jesus is the Father. I know many Trinitarians, probably most, say that the Father is not the Son, but I see the opposite in scripture. Phillip wanted to see the Father and Jesus basically told Him, "You're looking at Him." Jesus could have told Phillip, "You can't see Him, because He is Spirit and He is in heaven, but that's not what he said. Jesus is also called "The Everlasting Father" in Isaiah 9.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by darinhouston » Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:57 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:30 pm
Well, if Jesus is God and the Father is God, then Jesus is the Father. I know many Trinitarians, probably most, say that the Father is not the Son, but I see the opposite in scripture. Phillip wanted to see the Father and Jesus basically told Him, "You're looking at Him." Jesus could have told Phillip, "You can't see Him, because He is Spirit and He is in heaven, but that's not what he said. Jesus is also called "The Everlasting Father" in Isaiah 9.
My apologies - that's not consistent with any form of Trinitarianism, and I truly thought you wouldn't have meant that. Thanks for the clarification.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by Paidion » Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:16 pm

Right you are, Darin.
The classic Trinitarian believes that "God" is a compound Being consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I was a classic Trinitarian in the first two decades of my Christian faith, doubtless because that was the position of the fundamentalist churches which I attended during those years.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Post Reply

Return to “Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology”