How Many Saviors Are There?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Homer
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How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by Homer » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:40 am

Isaiah affirms that there is only one who is both God and Savior, Luke informs us that this Savior is Jesus (Luke and Acts), and Paul affirms the living God is the Savior.

Isaiah 43:11
New American Standard Bible 1995
11 “I, even I, am the Lord,
And there is no savior besides Me.

Isaiah 45:21-22
New American Standard Bible 1995
21 “Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.

Luke 2:11
New American Standard Bible 1995
11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Acts 4:12
New American Standard Bible 1995
12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

1 Timothy 4:10
New American Standard Bible 1995
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

The scriptures inform us there is only one Savior, that God is that Savior, and Jesus is Savior. As I have contended the Triune God best explains all the scriptural data. God came down as man in Jesus Christ.

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Paidion
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by Paidion » Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:46 pm

I expected to see a reply to this post by now. Since there has been none, I am ready to explain this seeming contradiction. I say "seeming" because it is not a true contradiction.

Homer explains it by saying that the only Saviour is "the triune God, which in the view of the Trinitarian is a compound God consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I consider that the true explanation is that the Saviour God in ancient times was "the only true God", God the Father. What God saved His people from was physical destruction in war, by enabling His people to become victorious in war. So the Father was the only saviour to defeat the enemies of the Israelites.

Jesus, the divine son of God died and was raised again to save his disciples from sin, as well as all others who submit to his lordship, that is to enable them to become victorious over wrong-doing. So Jesus was and is the only Saviour from sin.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by Homer » Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:00 pm

Hi Paidion,

Who is the Savior Paul spoke of in Timothy 4:10? Father, Son, both? Surely at the time Paul wrote he didn't have in mind Savior from worldly calamities such as war. And in Titus Paul denominates God as our Savior and in the very next verse it is Christ Jesus:

Titus 1:1-4, New American Standard
1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, 3 but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,

4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

In Verse 4 he combines Father and Son!

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darinhouston
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by darinhouston » Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:03 am

Homer wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:00 pm
Hi Paidion,

Who is the Savior Paul spoke of in Timothy 4:10? Father, Son, both? Surely at the time Paul wrote he didn't have in mind Savior from worldly calamities such as war. And in Titus Paul denominates God as our Savior and in the very next verse it is Christ Jesus:

Titus 1:1-4, New American Standard
1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, 3 but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,

4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

In Verse 4 he combines Father and Son!
Pretty simply because God is our Savior through His son, Jesus Christ. That point you are trying to make seems to take a very ambiguous grammatical "possibility" which might be "consistent" with a trinitarian view and use it to obscure what is to my mind a very clear distinction made even in this passage between God on the one hand and Jesus Christ on the other.

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Homer
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by Homer » Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:00 pm

Darin,

You wrote:
Pretty simply because God is our Savior through His son, Jesus Christ. That point you are trying to make seems to take a
very ambiguous grammatical "possibility" which might be "consistent" with a trinitarian view and use it to obscure what is
to my mind a very clear distinction made even in this passage between God on the one hand and Jesus Christ on the other
On what basis do you justify the distinction when the Greek regarding Savior refers to God our Savior, tou soteros emon,and Christ Jesus our Savior, tou soteros emon? Seems to me you are making a distinction where there is no difference.

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Paidion
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by Paidion » Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:48 pm

Homer, in my initial reply I was distinguishing between Yahweh (God) in the pre-Christian era being the only Saviour of the Hebrews from their enemies, and Jesus via his death and resurrection being the only Saviour of his disciples from sin.

But in the Christian era, God the Father, can also be considered to be a Saviour since he caused his only-begotten Son (begotten before all ages) to be born as a human being by means of a virgin woman, and thereby becoming the Saviour of his disciples from sin, that is delivering them from sinful behaviour. God the Father's act in salvation is clear in the well-known John 3:16. He GAVE his only-begotten Son. He is said to be "God our Savior" in the following verses, and He is distinguished from Christ Jesus in 1 Timothy 1:1.

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
Tit 1:3 and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;
Tit 2:10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.
Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Jude 1:25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.


Note: Underlining for emphasis is mine and not in the text
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by Homer » Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:20 pm

Paidion,

But then again Christ is Savior 3 times in Titus. In addition to 1:4, see also :

Titus 2:13
New American Standard Bible 1995
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Titus 3:6
New American Standard Bible 1995
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

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Paidion
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by Paidion » Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:42 pm

Hi Homer, you quoted:
Titus 2:13
New American Standard Bible 1995
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Translations, translations, translations!
I don't know why some translations omit the word "our" before "Savior". It's in the Greek. I suspect the explanation is theological bias.

The King James translators don't omit the "our":

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (AV)

Other translations that don't omit the "our" are: AKJV, Douay, LO, ASV, and Webster.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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dwight92070
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:39 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:03 am


Pretty simply because God is our Savior through His son, Jesus Christ. That point you are trying to make seems to take a very ambiguous grammatical "possibility" which might be "consistent" with a trinitarian view and use it to obscure what is to my mind a very clear distinction made even in this passage between God on the one hand and Jesus Christ on the other.
Dwight - So God is our Savior through someone else who is not Him? How can God take the credit for saving us, if someone else who is not Him, actually did the saving? What kind of God is that? He expects us to thank Him for saving us, when someone else actually saved us? That's like a lifeguard's father claiming he saved the drowning victim, when actually it was his son who saved him.

Dwight - Thankfully, the verses in Titus that Homer referred to give us the answer, as do countless other verses. Both the Father and the Son are our Savior, because both are God. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God - yet we also know that there is One God, in three persons.

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dwight92070
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:29 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:42 pm


Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[/i] (AV)

Dwight - Okay, let's look at the verse the way you think it should be translated (above). I don't dispute that. But whose "glorious appearing" are we looking for? God the Father, as the verse seems to say? No. The following four verses tell us plainly whose appearing we are to look for - Jesus:

1 Timothy 6:14 - the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 Timothy 1:10 - the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus
2 Timothy 4:1 - ... and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by HIs appearing and His kingdom:
2 Timothy 4:8 -... the Lord, the righteous Judge (that's Jesus), will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His
appearing.

Dwight - So the "glorious appearance" mentioned in Titus 2:13 has to be Jesus (I know of no verse that tells us we are looking for the appearance of the Father, specifically) - so here Paul calls Jesus "the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ".
Dwight - Paul makes it abundantly clear that not only is Jesus our Savior, but He is our great God.
Dwight - Paidon, thanks for your help in making our point.

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