How Many Saviors Are There?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:15 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:11 pm

So how can Jesus come in the glory of His Father, if the Father will not give His glory to another?
I think it has to be read in context. Clearly this was in the context of "other gods" - and more particularly that no one else would get the glory that belongs to Him - when His son has the same mission and is glorified by him and filled with His Spirit and that glory abounds to his Father (both in fact and by Jesus' own words) I just don't believe the same notion is in view as was considered in Isaiah.
[/quote]

Dwight - The context of Isaiah 42:1-7 is clearly all about Jesus, the Messiah, "My Servant", as the Father calls Him. The Father is clearly praising His Son "in whom His soul delights". You could accurately say that the Father is glorifying His Son. How appropriate for the Father to say in verse 8 that He "WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER." So clearly Jesus is NOT ANOTHER, someone other than God.

Dwight - In the Isaiah 48, again, the Father is basically boasting that He has mercy on Israel, for His own praise, so that they would not give credit to their idols. In verse 11, He says: "And My glory I will not give to another." If Jesus is not God, then when the Father gives Him His glory, He would be giving His glory to an idol.

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Homer
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by Homer » Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:37 pm

Paidion,
The glory of the great God will appear, and the glory of our saviour Jesus Christ will appear. Although similar, the two are distinct.
Although the sentence is not clear I assume you are speaking of a difference in Glory between God and the Son. Could you cite scripture that indicates this?

This scripture seems to say we see God's glory in Christ; that the glory is one and the same:
2 Corinthians 4:6
New American Standard Bible 1995
6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Hebrews 1:3
New American Standard Bible 1995
3 And He is the radiance (apaugasma, shining forth) of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

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dwight92070
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:51 pm

Homer wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:37 pm
Paidion,
The glory of the great God will appear, and the glory of our saviour Jesus Christ will appear. Although similar, the two are distinct.
Although the sentence is not clear I assume you are speaking of a difference in Glory between God and the Son. Could you cite scripture that indicates this?

This scripture seems to say we see God's glory in Christ; that the glory is one and the same:
2 Corinthians 4:6
New American Standard Bible 1995
6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Hebrews 1:3
New American Standard Bible 1995
3 And He is the radiance (apaugasma, shining forth) of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Dwight - Excellent verses Homer, and since Christ is the radiance of the glory of the Father, and we see the glory of the Father in the face of Christ - and since we know that the Father will not give His glory to another, therefore we know that that glory is one and the same, and that the Father and the Son are also one and the same - God.

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Paidion
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by Paidion » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:08 am

In his prayer, Jesus himself addressed his Father as the ONLY true God.

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (John 17:1-3 ESV)

"AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent."
So clearly Jesus did not consider himself to be God—rather God's Son, the One that the only true God sent into the world.
Paidion

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dwight92070
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:49 pm

Since God will not give His glory to another, and yet He gave His glory to Jesus, and will again at Jesus' 2nd coming, then clearly Jesus is not "another", or other than God.

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darinhouston
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by darinhouston » Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:08 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:44 pm
Paidion wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:47 am
Here is a good translation of Titus 2:13

...looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

The glory of the great God will appear, and the glory of our saviour Jesus Christ will appear. Although similar, the two are distinct.
Dwight - Darin quoted Matthew 16:27: "For the Son of Man is going to come IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER with His angels ..." Yet, the Father will not give His glory to another. Let's assume that you are correct, Paidon ,that the glory of the Son is distinct from the glory of the Father. That doesn't change the fact that when Jesus comes, the Father will give Him His (i.e. the Father's) glory.

Dwight - So how is that possible, since the Father gives His glory to no one else?
Context, context, context. The Bible is FULL of absolutes that aren't truly absolute. They are true in their context, but limited to their context. It is CLEAR that God shares his reign with no one else, but clearly He does - Jesus is at His right hand, ruling. But, we are ALSO ruling and reigning with Christ by being "In Christ." Likewise, we will be glorified just as Jesus has been glorified. What does glorified mean than sharing in His glory? We also reflect His glory just as (though less than) Jesus did (perfectly). That is very different than letting other gods besides Him take credit for and receive glory for creation and all that is in it. We share in His glory only because of His plan of redemption and only to the extent He permits. Jesus shares in His glory because God willed it and Jesus fulfilled it. That is consistent to my mind of the context in which God declared that He would not share His glory with another god.

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darinhouston
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by darinhouston » Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:29 am

This article makes some additional points which are well worth considering, especially in the context of the Isaiah 42 passage and the immediate context of Israel....

https://www.angelfire.com/space/thegosp ... h42_8.html

Isaiah 42:8 / 48:11
I am Yahweh, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another. (Isaiah 42:8).


The Trinitarian Claim
Trinitarians claim that Jesus must be God because God will not give His glory to another but God did give His glory to Jesus.


The Claim vs. The Facts
Trinitarians would like the text to mean, "I will not give My glory to another [person besides Me]." But the Scriptural facts show us the text means God will not give His glory to another [nation besides Israel].


The Problem with the Claim


1. Man was created in the image and glory of God

This verse speaks for itself:
For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God but woman is the glory of man.
1 Corinthians 11:7
2. Christians are being transformed into the same image as Christ

This passage speaks for itself:
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.... And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the God of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 3:14-4:4
3. Jesus Gives the Same Glory to His Disciples

Trinitarians make observations such as the following:
God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory... 1 Peter 1:21

... Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honour... Hebrews 2:9

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus. Acts 3:13

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. John 17:5
So since God said He will not give His glory to another, Trinitarians conclude Jesus must also be God because he received this glory.

But Jesus prays that his disciples will be given that very same glory.
Now You, Father, glorify me alongside Yourself..... The glory which You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one.... that they may see my glory which You have given me. John 17:22-24.
And the problems don't stop there.
A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God. 1 Corinthians 11:7.

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory unto glory.... the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 3:18-4:4
So what sense does it make to claim that since God will not give His glory to another when Jesus' disciples are not God yet they were given the same glory God gave to Jesus?

4. The Speaker at Isaiah 42:8 is God the Father

The Trinitarian claim here is demonstrated to be a pitiful failure as soon as it is recognized that the speaker in this passage is God the Father. Isaiah 42:1ff. is quoted by Matthew:
Isaiah 42:1-4

Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry out or raise his voice, nor make his voice heard in the street. A bruised reed he will not break and a dimly burning wick he will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice.
Matthew 12:18-21

This was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: Behold, My servant whom I have chosen, My beloved with whom My soul delights. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he shall proclaim justice to the nations. He will not wrangle or cry aloud, nor will any one hear his voice in the streets; he will not break a bruised reed or quench a smoldering wick, till he brings justice to victory.
It was the Father who placed his Spirit upon Jesus. Therefore, we know that God the Father is speaking at Isaiah 42:1-8. Now since the Father is speaking in this passage, the Trinitarian is caught in an inescapable dilemma. If he interprets Isaiah 42:8 to mean the speaker refuses to give His glory to anyone else, then how are they going to explain that the Father did give His glory to someone else? In Trinitarian doctrine, Jesus is someone else.


Analysis of the Facts


1. The Context of Isaiah 42:8: God's Chosen Servant Israel aka "Jacob"


We have already seen that the speaker of Isaiah 42:8 is necessarily God the Father. But there is more in this context which tells us what is really going on here in this verse.

Isaiah 48:11

Let us first have a look at Isaiah 48:11:
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.
Here we find that God makes a statement very similar to Isaiah 42:8. Now notice who God is speaking to:
Hear this, O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel. (Isaiah 48:1).
"Israel" and "Jacob" in Isaiah

In Isaiah, the nation of Israel is depicted as God's servant Jacob. This is because Jacob was also given the name Israel by the angel with whom he struggled all night long. The nation of Israel is so-called because they are all the descendants of Israel, that is, the descendants of Jacob. The nation is named after their progenitor Jacob aka "Israel." For this reason, the nation of Israel is being depicted as Jacob, God's servant, and Jacob, God's chosen.
But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen... Do not fear, O Jacob My servant... O Jacob, also Israel, for you are My servant. I have formed you, you are My servant, O Israel. Isaiah 44:1-2, 21.

Jacob My servant, and Israel My chosen one. (Isaiah 45).
Notice how the above language is the same language as Isaiah 42:1 where Yahweh is referring to his chosen servant. This is the nation of Israel depicted as God's servant Jacob. The reason this verse also applies to Jesus is because Jesus was the King of the Jews and King of Israel and therefore all Israel were his subjects and he represented all Israel in and of himself.

Now notice the context of Isaiah 48:11:
Hear this, O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel....
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.
God will not give his glory to another besides who?


2. Israel: God's Glory


Not only do Trinitarians blunder concerning the speaker of this passage, they completely blow it concerning the interpretation of this passage and the context proves this out.

When we read all the facts, the Trinitarian mistake becomes clear. Yahweh is not saying, "I will not give My glory to another besides Me" or "I will not give My glory to ANYONE." God is saying He will not give His glory to another nation besides Israel His chosen servant.
For the Lord has redeemed Jacob, and will be glorified in Israel. Isaiah 44:23.

You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified. Isaiah 49:3.

They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. Romans 9:4.

Behold, you shall call nations that you know not, and nations that knew you not shall run to you, because of the Lord your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified you. Isaiah 55:5

Arise, shine; for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD has risen upon you.... No longer will you have the sun for light by day, Nor for brightness will the moon give you light; But you will have the LORD for an everlasting light, And your God for your glory. Isaiah 60:1,19.
Now carefully regard these passages:
But now, thus says Yahweh, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!... Everyone who is called by My name, and whom I have created for My glory, whom I have formed, also whom I have made." Isaiah 43:1-7

I will put salvation in Zion, to Israel My glory. Isaiah 46:13.
Israel IS God's glory and was created for God's glory and to be God's glory. If we honestly appreciate the context, it is abundantly clear that the words "I will not give my glory to another" do not mean "I will not give my glory to another [person besides me]; they mean "I will not give my glory to another [nation besides my chosen servant Israel]."


3. Basic Reading Comprehension

If a man says to his wife, "I will not give my love to another," she does not suppose he will not give his love to her and keep that love all for himself. He means he will not give his love to anyone except his wife. At Isaiah 42:8, Yahweh God is speaking to Israel through his prophet Isaiah. In the same way, when God says, "I will not give My glory to another, he does not mean He will give his glory to Israel but intends to keep it for Himself. He means He will not give His glory to anyone except Israel.
They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. Romans 9:4.
Carefully regard the contextual information in Isaiah. If God gave his glory to anyone else but Israel then His name would be profaned among the nations. God would be seen as a failure because it was Israel who He had raised up for His glory.
Hear this, O house of Jacob, who are named Israel.... For the sake of My name I delay My wrath, and for My praise I restrain it for you, in order not to cut you off. Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver. I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another. Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called. Isaiah 48:1-12
Conclusion

The Trinitarian claim is first plagued with the problem that men are created in the image and glory of God, we are being transformed into the same image of God as the risen Christ, and the glory which God gave to Jesus is also given to his disciples. Moreover, the speaker at Isaiah 42:8 is shown by Matthew to be God the Father. The Father therefore says he will not give his glory to another. Hence, the Trinitarian claim blows up in their own presence because once it is realized the speaker is the Father they have unwittingly exluded Jesus with their own interpretation of this verse.

Blinded by their eagerness to create a Triune God, Trinitarians have made an obvious blunder by violently ripping Isaiah 42:8 and 48:11 out of its context. Since God himself tells us that Israel is created for "MY glory" and Israel is "MY Glory," we have no choice but to understand the words "I will not give my glory to another" as "I will not give my glory to any one else but Israel by chosen servant."

The facts tell us beyond doubt that God is saying He will not give his glory to another NATION. He created Israel for HIS glory. God states Israel is MY glory. The contextual facts are plain. God will not give his glory to another nation.

I will put salvation in Zion, to Israel My glory. Isaiah 46:13.

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Paidion
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by Paidion » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:00 pm

Thank you for sharing those perceptions, Darin.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by Homer » Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:15 pm

Since God himself tells us that Israel is created for "MY glory" and Israel is "MY Glory," we have no choice but to understand the words "I will not give my glory to another" as "I will not give my glory to any one else but Israel by chosen servant."

The facts tell us beyond doubt that God is saying He will not give his glory to another NATION. He created Israel for HIS glory. God states Israel is MY glory. The contextual facts are plain. God will not give his glory to another nation.
Doesn't make any sense, a borderline absurdity given most Jews have rejected Christ for 2,000 years. How is the nation of Israel glorifying God? They still persecute Christians. Oh, I forgot they are mostly Palestinians. Jews persecute Palestinian Christians and thus Glorify God? I don't think so.

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darinhouston
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Re: How Many Saviors Are There?

Post by darinhouston » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:06 am

Homer wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:15 pm
Since God himself tells us that Israel is created for "MY glory" and Israel is "MY Glory," we have no choice but to understand the words "I will not give my glory to another" as "I will not give my glory to any one else but Israel by chosen servant."

The facts tell us beyond doubt that God is saying He will not give his glory to another NATION. He created Israel for HIS glory. God states Israel is MY glory. The contextual facts are plain. God will not give his glory to another nation.
Doesn't make any sense, a borderline absurdity given most Jews have rejected Christ for 2,000 years. How is the nation of Israel glorifying God? They still persecute Christians. Oh, I forgot they are mostly Palestinians. Jews persecute Palestinian Christians and thus Glorify God? I don't think so.
This seems obvious but I believe he's talking about God's chosen people, the nation of Israel at the time. Not the modern state of Jerusalem.

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