The First Act of God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:12 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:23 am
darinhouston wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:04 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:40 pm


Dwight - First of all, you're changing the subject. My point was that most any rational person CAN LOOK AT JOHN 1, and see that it says clearly that Jesus is God. Second, the name "Sophia" does not appear anywhere in the Bible, so why would you introduce an extra-Biblical name, and "assign" it to Proverbs 8, when it's not even there? Third, the Septuagint has been tampered with by the Jews, after the time of Christ, so it is not a reliable source.
Not at all - but, neither does the term "Word" -- it's Logos in greek as you know. So, ask about Hakhmah, if you prefer the Hebrew. But, I presume your son read John 1 in English, so let's let him read Proverbs 8 in English. But I'm not changing the subject at all. Proverbs 8 is as relevant to John 1 as Genesis 1 is and is very similar in style and purpose. Does your son see hakhmah as a "person"?
Dwight - Actually "Word" does appear in the Bible. It is the English translation of the Greek "logos". So what Hebrew word translates to "Sophia" in the English, regarding Proverbs 8?
I believe the word I use above is Hakhmah -- it is seldom used in translations. The Greek notion there is well understood to be called Sophia in the greek and it is most commonly translated in English as Wisdom (with a capital W and use of personification) if the more "personal" Sophia is not retained and so forth. But, in any event, this is a highly personified passage of "someone" stating to have pre-existed all Creation. It is not as familiar to most as John 1, so it is a good test to see if we are relying more on our presuppositions or interpreting texts like this consistently (especially for a "teenager" test).

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Paidion
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by Paidion » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:41 pm

Jude 1:25
μονω θεω σωτηρι ημων δια ιησου χριστου του κυριον ημων δοξα μεγαλωσυνη κρατος και εξουσια
προ παντος του αιωνος και νυν και εις παντος τους αιωνας αμην

to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all of the age and now and into all the ages. Truly.


Jude ascribes glory, majesty, power and authority to the only God our Saviour throughout all time—past, present, and future.
Yet, in some way, this is ascribed THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.

Any thoughts?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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darinhouston
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:42 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:41 pm
Jude 1:25
μονω θεω σωτηρι ημων δια ιησου χριστου του κυριον ημων δοξα μεγαλωσυνη κρατος και εξουσια
προ παντος του αιωνος και νυν και εις παντος τους αιωνας αμην

to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all of the age and now and into all the ages. Truly.


Jude ascribes glory, majesty, power and authority to the only God our Saviour throughout all time—past, present, and future.
Yet, in some way, this is ascribed THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.

Any thoughts?
Maybe we can start a new thread for this one? We've been drifting a bit.

dwight92070
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Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The First Act of God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:14 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:12 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:23 am
darinhouston wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:04 am


Not at all - but, neither does the term "Word" -- it's Logos in greek as you know. So, ask about Hakhmah, if you prefer the Hebrew. But, I presume your son read John 1 in English, so let's let him read Proverbs 8 in English. But I'm not changing the subject at all. Proverbs 8 is as relevant to John 1 as Genesis 1 is and is very similar in style and purpose. Does your son see hakhmah as a "person"?
Dwight - Actually "Word" does appear in the Bible. It is the English translation of the Greek "logos". So what Hebrew word translates to "Sophia" in the English, regarding Proverbs 8?
I believe the word I use above is Hakhmah -- it is seldom used in translations. The Greek notion there is well understood to be called Sophia in the greek and it is most commonly translated in English as Wisdom (with a capital W and use of personification) if the more "personal" Sophia is not retained and so forth. But, in any event, this is a highly personified passage of "someone" stating to have pre-existed all Creation. It is not as familiar to most as John 1, so it is a good test to see if we are relying more on our presuppositions or interpreting texts like this consistently (especially for a "teenager" test).
Dwight - Sophia, being a woman's name, obviously gives one the impression that we're actually speaking of a female person here, which is not my understanding of the passage, since Christ is called the Wisdom of God, and He is male. I think it is a personificaton of wisdom. Just as the adulterous woman is desirable to the flesh nature of a man, so this "woman" appeals to our spiritual nature in Christ. We are to seek wisdom as if it was a wise and beautiful woman. Verse 23 says, "From everlasting I was established", so wisdom is eternal. To say "she" was "brought forth" sounds like birth, but since "she" is eternal, it can't mean that. It must mean that God used wisdom in all of His actions. He "brought her forth", as it were, from His "toolbox", even before Creation.

Dwight - However, if you think "Word" in John 1 is a personification (I assume that's where you're going with this), like Sophia is of wisdom, then I think you're way off base. The context makes it clear that the Word is a "Person" who also happens to be God, the Creator, the Light, and He became flesh, in the person of Jesus. Yes, I think a teenager would have a more difficult time understanding Proverbs 8 - even mature adults probably disagree on this one. So what? Again, I was referencing John 1, not Proverbs 8, because John 1 is quite straightforward and easy to understand, so you did change the subject. You could probably point out a hundred places in the Bible where teenagers would be totally confused, but when it comes to John 1, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, to see that he is saying that Jesus is God, which was my point all along.

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darinhouston
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by darinhouston » Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:41 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:14 pm
Dwight - Sophia, being a woman's name, obviously gives one the impression that we're actually speaking of a female person here, which is not my understanding of the passage, since Christ is called the Wisdom of God, and He is male. I think it is a personificaton of wisdom. Just as the adulterous woman is desirable to the flesh nature of a man, so this "woman" appeals to our spiritual nature in Christ. We are to seek wisdom as if it was a wise and beautiful woman. Verse 23 says, "From everlasting I was established", so wisdom is eternal. To say "she" was "brought forth" sounds like birth, but since "she" is eternal, it can't mean that. It must mean that God used wisdom in all of His actions. He "brought her forth", as it were, from His "toolbox", even before Creation.

Dwight - However, if you think "Word" in John 1 is a personification (I assume that's where you're going with this), like Sophia is of wisdom, then I think you're way off base. The context makes it clear that the Word is a "Person" who also happens to be God, the Creator, the Light, and He became flesh, in the person of Jesus. Yes, I think a teenager would have a more difficult time understanding Proverbs 8 - even mature adults probably disagree on this one. So what? Again, I was referencing John 1, not Proverbs 8, because John 1 is quite straightforward and easy to understand, so you did change the subject. You could probably point out a hundred places in the Bible where teenagers would be totally confused, but when it comes to John 1, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, to see that he is saying that Jesus is God, which was my point all along.
I think you've sort of proven my point -- 2000 years of familiarity and dogma has an affect on how easily you read John 1 and also how the unfamiliarity folks have with Proverbs 8 muddles a similarly plain reading of Proverbs 8.  You might find it interesting that Arius believed Proverbs 8 was a reference to Jesus and how theologians believe he is wrong about that. You might also note that it's not just the name "Sophia" that connotes femininity - consider the pronouns and the contrast with Proverbs 7.

dwight92070
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:04 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:41 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:14 pm
Dwight - Sophia, being a woman's name, obviously gives one the impression that we're actually speaking of a female person here, which is not my understanding of the passage, since Christ is called the Wisdom of God, and He is male. I think it is a personificaton of wisdom. Just as the adulterous woman is desirable to the flesh nature of a man, so this "woman" appeals to our spiritual nature in Christ. We are to seek wisdom as if it was a wise and beautiful woman. Verse 23 says, "From everlasting I was established", so wisdom is eternal. To say "she" was "brought forth" sounds like birth, but since "she" is eternal, it can't mean that. It must mean that God used wisdom in all of His actions. He "brought her forth", as it were, from His "toolbox", even before Creation.

Dwight - However, if you think "Word" in John 1 is a personification (I assume that's where you're going with this), like Sophia is of wisdom, then I think you're way off base. The context makes it clear that the Word is a "Person" who also happens to be God, the Creator, the Light, and He became flesh, in the person of Jesus. Yes, I think a teenager would have a more difficult time understanding Proverbs 8 - even mature adults probably disagree on this one. So what? Again, I was referencing John 1, not Proverbs 8, because John 1 is quite straightforward and easy to understand, so you did change the subject. You could probably point out a hundred places in the Bible where teenagers would be totally confused, but when it comes to John 1, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, to see that he is saying that Jesus is God, which was my point all along.
I think you've sort of proven my point -- 2000 years of familiarity and dogma has an affect on how easily you read John 1 and also how the unfamiliarity folks have with Proverbs 8 muddles a similarly plain reading of Proverbs 8.  You might find it interesting that Arius believed Proverbs 8 was a reference to Jesus and how theologians believe he is wrong about that. You might also note that it's not just the name "Sophia" that connotes femininity - consider the pronouns and the contrast with Proverbs 7.
Dwight - Sometimes even the points you "prove" come across to me like you're speaking a different language, or better yet, they're like a maze, and I have to somehow navigate through them, to finally come out the other side, where your point is revealed. Instead of just stating the point at the start, you take us on a round-about trail of "What does he say about Sophia?", with no explanation whatever. First of all, I don't have 2000 years of familiarity and dogma in my background. I have about 51 years of regular Bible reading in my life. I know, you'll say that the doctrines and teachings and dogma of the last 2000 years has affected my understanding of the John 1 today. I would say, no more than it has affected your understanding. I would also say that the unfamiliarity I have with Proverbs 8, is probably similar to your unfamiliarity with it. So Arius believed that Proverbs 8 referred to Jesus. He also believed that Jesus is not God - so where are you going with all this? Except that you think you proved your "point". I think I read Proverbs 8 plainly, just like I read John 1 plainly. I don't think I have a muddled understanding of Proverbs 8, any more than you do. You do, however, have a muddled method of making your point - it's not plain at all.

Dwight - I know you disagree with my understanding of John 1, and I would assume that you also disagree with my understanding of Proverbs 8. That's my assumption, because you have not plainly told me that. So I assume you agree with Arius, but again, you have not plainly stated that. So all of this boils down to you, seeing John 1 and Proverbs 8, one way - and I see them in a different way. What a surprise - not. So where do we go from here?

Dwight - I also don't have 2000 years to try to decipher your posts, so it would be helpful, if you would get right to the point - like John did in John 1.

dwight92070
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:01 am

I'm okay with a new thread, if you want to.

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darinhouston
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by darinhouston » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:32 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:42 pm
Paidion wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:41 pm
Jude 1:25
μονω θεω σωτηρι ημων δια ιησου χριστου του κυριον ημων δοξα μεγαλωσυνη κρατος και εξουσια
προ παντος του αιωνος και νυν και εις παντος τους αιωνας αμην

to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all of the age and now and into all the ages. Truly.


Jude ascribes glory, majesty, power and authority to the only God our Saviour throughout all time—past, present, and future.
Yet, in some way, this is ascribed THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.

Any thoughts?
Maybe we can start a new thread for this one? We've been drifting a bit.
Maybe we do need a new thread on this one, but I think the reference to Jesus may simply refer to the means of how God was our Savior and that the rest of the passage is not related to Jesus. I'm wondering if the greek grammar is consistent with this.

To punctuate in line with this understanding...

"to the only God our Savior (through Jesus Christ our Lord), be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time, and now, and for all eternity. Amen. "

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Paidion
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by Paidion » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:18 pm

The Greek of Textus Receptus, and the translations of this Greek (such as the King James Version) don't mention Jesus

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. (AV)


However, the Westcott-Hort Greek and the translations of this Greek (such as the NRSV) contain the phrase "through Jesus Christ our Lord".

To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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darinhouston
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by darinhouston » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:19 pm

Paidion wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:18 pm
The Greek of Textus Receptus, and the translations of this Greek (such as the King James Version) don't mention Jesus

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. (AV)


However, the Westcott-Hort Greek and the translations of this Greek (such as the NRSV) contain the phrase "through Jesus Christ our Lord".

To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
That adds support for it being a parenthetical of sorts (whether in the original text or not).

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