Who is the Alpha & Omega?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:07 am

Otherness,
No, no one is forcing you to talk that way. I do not believe the Spirit is forcing you to talk that way. You are choosing, of your own free will, to talk like that, and then, patting yourself on the back, you think you are being led by the Holy Spirit. You call that kind of talk "spiritual", and wish that everyone could be as mature as you are, and talk the way you do. I would never desire to talk like that. I would rather follow Jesus and use relatively simple speech, so that people can actually understand me. Do you speak to your son that way? If you do, I feel sorry for him. He must think that you're an alien from outer space. If you have a job, do you speak to your coworkers like that? Do you speak to your immediate family members like that? Your parents, siblings, uncles, aunts, cousins? If you were my flesh and blood brother and spoke like that in public, with me there, I would be embarrassed by you. It would not be a witness to the world, it would be a demonstration of your deception. They would think that you're in some kind of cult. Maybe you are.

Otherness
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by Otherness » Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:08 pm

DWIGHT>>>No, no one is forcing you to talk that way. I do not believe the Spirit is forcing you to talk that way. You are choosing, of your own free will, to talk like that, and then, patting yourself on the back, you think you are being led by the Holy Spirit. You call that kind of talk "spiritual", and wish that everyone could be as mature as you are, and talk the way you do. I would never desire to talk like that. I would rather follow Jesus and use relatively simple speech, so that people can actually understand me. Do you speak to your son that way? If you do, I feel sorry for him. He must think that you're an alien from outer space. If you have a job, do you speak to your coworkers like that? Do you speak to your immediate family members like that? Your parents, siblings, uncles, aunts, cousins? If you were my flesh and blood brother and spoke like that in public, with me there, I would be embarrassed by you. It would not be a witness to the world, it would be a demonstration of your deception. They would think that you're in some kind of cult. Maybe you are.<<<

The authors of the paper that was linked in my last post “talked in a way” that was appropriate to their subject matter. Their peer group talks that way, though less formally, when they talk to each other. Their subject matter “forces” them to do so. They don't “talk that way” outside their group in their other relationships.

We are Christians talking about God as He is in Himself (the Trinity), so our very subject (He is Spirit) calls for spiritual ideas and concepts about the spiritual source and nature of all reality. Certainly no one is “forcing” you into this subject area, although I suspect you feel the Holy Spirit wants you to defend (what you see as) some kind of an attack on ....

There is nothing in what I have written that weakens trinitarian doctrine, rather it bolsters it from a General Revelation perspective. It recognizes that God (the Trinity) is glorified in a right understanding of what Creation is (essentially a spiritual phenomenon), and how He has brought it about (sustains it from moment to moment).

This particular perspective is not amplified in the Bible, but it is certainly there. In like manner ”the Trinity,” though not amplified (?) in the Bible, is most certainly there.

My 11/10 post addressed each of your 18 “not in the Bible” objections, and your follow-up simply glossed over what was said. It would serve your “perspective” better if you would (please) just stick to the actual issue.

Let's just take this one :

>>>"God is Other Himself." NITB<<<

The Father is NOT – is OTHER than – the Son, the Son is NOT – is OTHER than – the Father. It's in the Bible.

What is the issue here...what is it that troubles you about this? In the grace of God your input and my response may clear up some of what troubles you.

Remember, patience is a fungible asset : it can be spent everywhere, in any circumstance, on anything, at any time, and will only increase as it is spent.

Let us reason together.

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dwight92070
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:47 pm

Otherness wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:08 pm
DWIGHT>>>No, no one is forcing you to talk that way. I do not believe the Spirit is forcing you to talk that way. You are choosing, of your own free will, to talk like that, and then, patting yourself on the back, you think you are being led by the Holy Spirit. You call that kind of talk "spiritual", and wish that everyone could be as mature as you are, and talk the way you do. I would never desire to talk like that. I would rather follow Jesus and use relatively simple speech, so that people can actually understand me. Do you speak to your son that way? If you do, I feel sorry for him. He must think that you're an alien from outer space. If you have a job, do you speak to your coworkers like that? Do you speak to your immediate family members like that? Your parents, siblings, uncles, aunts, cousins? If you were my flesh and blood brother and spoke like that in public, with me there, I would be embarrassed by you. It would not be a witness to the world, it would be a demonstration of your deception. They would think that you're in some kind of cult. Maybe you are.<<<

The authors of the paper that was linked in my last post “talked in a way” that was appropriate to their subject matter. Their peer group talks that way, though less formally, when they talk to each other. Their subject matter “forces” them to do so. They don't “talk that way” outside their group in their other relationships.

We are Christians talking about God as He is in Himself (the Trinity), so our very subject (He is Spirit) calls for spiritual ideas and concepts about the spiritual source and nature of all reality.

Dwight - The specific question was "Who is the Alpha & Omega?" I believe in the Trinity, but that was not the original topic. The scriptures tell us plainly that God is the Alpha and the Omega and that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. Nor is "He is Spirit" the original "subject", although I believe that too. Other than identifying the Alpha and the Omega with God and with Jesus, the Bible does not elaborate or "amplify" it's meaning. So why do you feel compelled to do so? So any other new or additional information would be tantamount to adding to the scripture. And in your case, the information is so difficult to understand, that the average Christian cannot discern if you're actually agreeing with the Bible or not. Therefore such information is confusing and useless, and therefore, unnecessary.

Certainly no one is “forcing” you into this subject area, although I suspect you feel the Holy Spirit wants you to defend (what you see as) some kind of an attack on ....

There is nothing in what I have written that weakens trinitarian doctrine,

Dwight - The Trinity is not even the topic here.

My 11/10 post addressed each of your 18 “not in the Bible” objections, and your follow-up simply glossed over what was said. It would serve your “perspective” better if you would (please) just stick to the actual issue.

Dwight - I did not "gloss over" your response. Rather, it's impossible to answer an argument that make no sense. When that was the case, I simply said that your words don't make sense.

Let's just take this one :

>>>"God is Other Himself." NITB<<<

Dwight - This is a good example of a statement that not only doesn't make sense, but it's not found in the Bible. Yes, I believe the Trinity doctrine that the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father, so why not just say that? Even though the Trinity is not the topic! But you cannot show me a chapter and verse that says, "God is Other Himself" - as I said, that's NITB. And I'm glad we don't find that in the Bible, because if it were there, it would only confuse us.
Dwight - You, Otherness, seem to be obsessed with your own chosen "identifier"- Otherness. Because the word "Other" pops up many times in your speech.

The Father is NOT – is OTHER than – the Son, the Son is NOT – is OTHER than – the Father. It's in the Bible.

What is the issue here...what is it that troubles you about this? In the grace of God your input and my response may clear up some of what troubles you.

Dwight - I have told you several times what troubles me about your speech, but you have glossed over that! I'll say it AGAIN one last time. DON'T gloss over it! Jesus did NOT talk that way! Nor did Paul or any other New Testament author! Nowhere does the subject matter of the Bible "force" you or anyone else to talk the way you do. So stop it! You have shown in your last two posts that you can talk the same way that the rest of us Christians do. But you continue to defend your "spiritual" nonsense talk, as if it had any profitable usefulness. It does not!

Remember, patience is a fungible asset : it can be spent everywhere, in any circumstance, on anything, at any time, and will only increase as it is spent.

Let us reason together.

Dwight - I think I have been very patient with you, but no more. We are simply going in circles. You defend your speech. I call your speech nonsense and confusing and unbiblical. I don't know about you, but my time is more important than to use hours trying to refute absurdity. So this will be my last post on this issue.

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dwight92070
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:07 pm

Homer wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:47 am
God speaks through Isaiah:

(New American Standard Bible 1995, all quotes that follow)

Isaiah 44:6
6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.


God self designates as the Alpha and Omega, the first and last:

Revelation 1:8
New American Standard Bible 1995
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Again God self designates as the Alpha and Omega:

Revelation 21:5-7
New American Standard Bible 1995
5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.


And Jesus self designates as the Alpha and Omega:

Revelation 22:12-13
New American Standard Bible 1995
12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”


How are God and Jesus both the Alpha and Omega unless there is a triune God?
Dwight - I'm surprised that you didn't include Revelation 1:17-18 and Revelation 2:8, both referring to One Who was dead, but is now living, Who calls Himself "The first and the last". Obviously Jesus. It is also obvious that the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, and the beginning and the end, ALL mean the same thing. ALPHA is the FIRST letter (and the BEGINNING) of the Greek alphabet and OMEGA is the LAST letter (and the END) of the Greek alphabet. Does it get any simpler than that? What does it mean? He is from eternity past to eternity future. "I AM WHO I AM".
Only Trinity deniers have to make it more complicated, so they can rationalize ignoring the truth that they don't want to hear.

dizerner

Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dizerner » Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:24 pm

Certainly there is nothing unusual, anti-intellectual, or unbiblical, about calling God wholly other.

This is a common phrase throughout the centuries used by academic theologians and deep persons of prayer alike, and is based in sound reasoning and Biblical truths. We don't confine our vocabulary merely to Biblical words, rather Biblical ideas.

It merely emphasizes God's uniqueness and the incomprehensibility of his ultimate nature as he must condescend to interact with us, summed up in such phrases as "There none like God," a very common refrain spoken both of God, by God, and to God.

The objection to such language is very strange to me, and seems to have no logical basis.

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dwight92070
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:24 pm

dizerner wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:24 pm
Certainly there is nothing unusual, anti-intellectual, or unbiblical, about calling God wholly other.

Dwight - That depends on what you mean by "wholly other". Since it's not a Biblical phrase, one person could think it means one thing, and another person could think it means something else. If Otherness had given a clear and detailed explanation of what he means by that, like you did in this post, maybe we could have had a meaningful exchange, but he didn't really do that. His "explanation" consisted of other non-Biblical phrases and ideas, again leaving me back at square one .

This is a common phrase throughout the centuries used by academic theologians and deep persons of prayer alike, and is based in sound reasoning and Biblical truths.

Dwight - That's the problem right there. It's a common phrase among spiritual elites - "academic theologians and deep persons of prayer". Really? So apparently if I was more academically theological and more of a deep person of prayer, I would comprehend these words, and maybe even start talking like that? Jesus never spoke like that. Wasn't He academically theological? Wasn't He a deep person of prayer? Paul never spoke like that.

We don't confine our vocabulary merely to Biblical words, rather Biblical ideas.

Dwight - You're right, but if our vocabulary is so confused and mysterious that the average Christian can't even identify a Biblical idea in it, then we are accomplishing nothing.

It merely emphasizes God's uniqueness and the incomprehensibility of his ultimate nature as he must condescend to interact with us, summed up in such phrases as "There none like God," a very common refrain spoken both of God, by God, and to God.

Dwight - Finally, an actual explanation using common vernacular.

The objection to such language is very strange to me, and seems to have no logical basis.

Dwight - That anyone would insist on using such language is what I find strange, especially when that person can say the same thing using common,ordinary and Biblical words, as you just did in your explanation. To speak plainly like Jesus and all the Bible authors, to make our message clear, like Paul said "we ought to", is 100% logical. The opposite is not logical at all.

dizerner

Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dizerner » Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:50 pm

Honestly, it just seems like you are arguing to argue, and I really wish that you would put the effort in to learn how to properly quote other people's posts. This kind of arguing is fleshly and unprofitable and there's no point in continuing or encouraging this negative behavior, plus the lack of effort shows a lack of seriousness.

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dwight92070
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:16 am

dizerner wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:50 pm
Honestly, it just seems like you are arguing to argue, and I really wish that you would put the effort in to learn how to properly quote other people's posts. This kind of arguing is fleshly and unprofitable and there's no point in continuing or encouraging this negative behavior, plus the lack of effort shows a lack of seriousness.
Dwight - So my arguments are fleshly and unprofitable, but yours are "in the Spirit" and beneficial? Wow! That's pretty convenient for you, isn't it? That way you always come out as the good guy, and whoever disagrees with you is the bad guy. That reminds me of Democrats - when they can't refute an argument, or defend their position with facts, which they hardly ever can, they resort to name-calling and personal attacks. You say that I'm engaging in fleshly and unprofitable speech, negative behavior, showing lack of effort and lack of seriousness. Then what is it called when you do the same thing?

Dwight -Romans 2:1 -"Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

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Homer
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by Homer » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:55 am

I thought this was a Christian forum. Just sayin'.

dizerner

Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dizerner » Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:17 pm

Completely misrepresenting what I said.

Shows a lack of honesty.

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