Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:29 pm
Dwight>>>Okay, let's get into the weeds, with your mystical and baffling statements. I hope to minimize the length of this (I hate LONG posts) by just quoting the first few words of your sentences, and not the whole sentence, so you'll know which sentence I'm referring to.<<<
Yes, long posts are problematic, but sometimes unavoidable. I'm breaking up my reply to you here into more than 2 posts to keep each one at a reasonable length. My reply is (really) long because I stayed with, and in, the details of your post, remaining as close to your thoughts [not omitting any of them] as possible out of respect for your concerns. Mostly I write in the “objective voice” to keep the temperature down in these kind of “disputes.” My formatting has your thoughts, even quoting me, within these >>>...<<< key strokes, and all else are my new replies. I've peppered (really, salted) my reply with biblical references, but just as much leaving those references out because I know you know the words of Scripture.
>>>"Logic can be a very slithery thing …" It can be those things, but it doesn't have to be.<<<
Yes, this is what I said.
>>>"... walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." Galatians 5:16<<<
Walking by the Spirit does not mean you will never stumble (even logically). Peter stumbled in the way he was thinking (and thus behaving), and Paul pointed out to him that he was being “illogical.”
>>>You seem to assume that using our logic ALWAYS produces those things.<<<
No, that cannot be said about what I said.
>>>Logic is NOT listed as a work of the flesh: Galatians 5:19-21>>>
It is so obviously true that the fleshly mind works to corrupt the logical processing of thought. Thus are we admonished to “walk circumspectly” because the devil, amongst all that he does, also corrupts logic to deceive. Do we not see, abundantly clearly in our day, the foolishness of those who claim to be wise (woke / logical).
>>>How does logic "work it's way from Creator to creation?"<<<
By way of the LOGOS. Logos and logic are cognates. The Logos is the logic of Creation. In the Beginning (Revelation 3:14) Creation began (Alpha) with the built in Logic that would cause it to reach the end (Omega) God desired : the Body of Christ. This is the predestination taught in the Bible.
>>>We know that God created man with a brain, and therefore, logic. There's no transmission of logic CONTINUALLY happening from God to His creation, as your statement suggests.<<<
I disagree. So logically does creation flow that even a sparrow falling to the ground works out to the good of what God is doing in forming us who love Him. Yes...the logic of Creation works (absolutely) EVERTHING to this end : the Body of Christ.
>>>Yes, we might discern that God is speaking to us occasionally, but normally we follow the leading of our brain, our logic. Your statement suggests a frequent or even continual transfer of logic, which I don't see in the Bible - it's NITB (not in the Bible).<<<
Actually, we dare not “lean on our own understanding : for the very reason that we are to lean on the “understanding we have been given” (1John 5:20). We cannot “logic” our way to this understanding that can only be had by the reception of it as a gift. Then, having “this understanding” (by gift) we can then use our capacity for logic to “understand all things” (1 John 2:20).
>>>How does logic "work it's way from beginning to end, or from alpha to omega?" This makes no sense - it's nonsense. It's NITB<<<
All logic begins with a first principle and (hopes to) work(s) to a necessary conclusion.
>>>"There is only an "I"".<<<
All that was said prior to this statement here was a preamble to this, the first principle of the logical process that follows it.
>>>You just mentioned "YHWH", which means "I AM WHO I AM", which is God's name, so why would you now just call Him "I"? There's no one in the Bible called "I", so why would you distort His name like that, other than to make more complicated whatever it is you have to say about "I"? This way of speaking about Him is NITB.<<<
Again, as stated originally, simplicity is logic's best ally. This is the simplest beginning (of the logical process that follows), and it is incorruptible because it is TRUTH. God, Himself, refers to Himself this very way : Isaiah 52 : 6 (NKJV) “Therefore My people shall know My name; Therefore they shall know in that day That I am He who speaks: ‘Behold, it is I.’”
>>>""I" does not exist in "space" of any kind." This also makes no sense. But I will try to take a stab at it, nonetheless. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, which means there is space between them. God passed before Moses, so that Moses could "see His back", which implies that God occupied space. God appeared to Abraham as a man, so He occupied space. Your statement is NITB, so it's a statement of your own making.<<<
The logical thought process has not yet moved from first principle, and to properly understand this statement it must be kept in its context. See that there is no Creation (yet) to be considered, only the existence of God Himself and NOTHING OTHER. There is no confusion here and no (good) reason for it. The problem is the thought process here is not being allowed to run its course. It is being fought every step of the way. Because we both are Trinitarians this is not necessary.
>>>"There is no space." Again, nonsense, and NITB. Obviously, there IS space.<<<
Again, keeping in mind what was said before this statement, that is, keeping it in context, it simply means that the “space” we experience in Creation does not exist (yet). There is only the Being of God.
>>>"There is nowhere for God to speak His words into, that is not His own being."
This too, makes no sense, but I will try anyway. God spoke His words into the earth. The earth is NOT His own being. NITB.<<<
This misunderstanding is happening because, again, it is the result of running ahead of where the thought is. Nothing said has yet left the discussion of the first principle. There is no earth yet in what I am saying.
(See next post)
Yes, long posts are problematic, but sometimes unavoidable. I'm breaking up my reply to you here into more than 2 posts to keep each one at a reasonable length. My reply is (really) long because I stayed with, and in, the details of your post, remaining as close to your thoughts [not omitting any of them] as possible out of respect for your concerns. Mostly I write in the “objective voice” to keep the temperature down in these kind of “disputes.” My formatting has your thoughts, even quoting me, within these >>>...<<< key strokes, and all else are my new replies. I've peppered (really, salted) my reply with biblical references, but just as much leaving those references out because I know you know the words of Scripture.
>>>"Logic can be a very slithery thing …" It can be those things, but it doesn't have to be.<<<
Yes, this is what I said.
>>>"... walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." Galatians 5:16<<<
Walking by the Spirit does not mean you will never stumble (even logically). Peter stumbled in the way he was thinking (and thus behaving), and Paul pointed out to him that he was being “illogical.”
>>>You seem to assume that using our logic ALWAYS produces those things.<<<
No, that cannot be said about what I said.
>>>Logic is NOT listed as a work of the flesh: Galatians 5:19-21>>>
It is so obviously true that the fleshly mind works to corrupt the logical processing of thought. Thus are we admonished to “walk circumspectly” because the devil, amongst all that he does, also corrupts logic to deceive. Do we not see, abundantly clearly in our day, the foolishness of those who claim to be wise (woke / logical).
>>>How does logic "work it's way from Creator to creation?"<<<
By way of the LOGOS. Logos and logic are cognates. The Logos is the logic of Creation. In the Beginning (Revelation 3:14) Creation began (Alpha) with the built in Logic that would cause it to reach the end (Omega) God desired : the Body of Christ. This is the predestination taught in the Bible.
>>>We know that God created man with a brain, and therefore, logic. There's no transmission of logic CONTINUALLY happening from God to His creation, as your statement suggests.<<<
I disagree. So logically does creation flow that even a sparrow falling to the ground works out to the good of what God is doing in forming us who love Him. Yes...the logic of Creation works (absolutely) EVERTHING to this end : the Body of Christ.
>>>Yes, we might discern that God is speaking to us occasionally, but normally we follow the leading of our brain, our logic. Your statement suggests a frequent or even continual transfer of logic, which I don't see in the Bible - it's NITB (not in the Bible).<<<
Actually, we dare not “lean on our own understanding : for the very reason that we are to lean on the “understanding we have been given” (1John 5:20). We cannot “logic” our way to this understanding that can only be had by the reception of it as a gift. Then, having “this understanding” (by gift) we can then use our capacity for logic to “understand all things” (1 John 2:20).
>>>How does logic "work it's way from beginning to end, or from alpha to omega?" This makes no sense - it's nonsense. It's NITB<<<
All logic begins with a first principle and (hopes to) work(s) to a necessary conclusion.
>>>"There is only an "I"".<<<
All that was said prior to this statement here was a preamble to this, the first principle of the logical process that follows it.
>>>You just mentioned "YHWH", which means "I AM WHO I AM", which is God's name, so why would you now just call Him "I"? There's no one in the Bible called "I", so why would you distort His name like that, other than to make more complicated whatever it is you have to say about "I"? This way of speaking about Him is NITB.<<<
Again, as stated originally, simplicity is logic's best ally. This is the simplest beginning (of the logical process that follows), and it is incorruptible because it is TRUTH. God, Himself, refers to Himself this very way : Isaiah 52 : 6 (NKJV) “Therefore My people shall know My name; Therefore they shall know in that day That I am He who speaks: ‘Behold, it is I.’”
>>>""I" does not exist in "space" of any kind." This also makes no sense. But I will try to take a stab at it, nonetheless. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, which means there is space between them. God passed before Moses, so that Moses could "see His back", which implies that God occupied space. God appeared to Abraham as a man, so He occupied space. Your statement is NITB, so it's a statement of your own making.<<<
The logical thought process has not yet moved from first principle, and to properly understand this statement it must be kept in its context. See that there is no Creation (yet) to be considered, only the existence of God Himself and NOTHING OTHER. There is no confusion here and no (good) reason for it. The problem is the thought process here is not being allowed to run its course. It is being fought every step of the way. Because we both are Trinitarians this is not necessary.
>>>"There is no space." Again, nonsense, and NITB. Obviously, there IS space.<<<
Again, keeping in mind what was said before this statement, that is, keeping it in context, it simply means that the “space” we experience in Creation does not exist (yet). There is only the Being of God.
>>>"There is nowhere for God to speak His words into, that is not His own being."
This too, makes no sense, but I will try anyway. God spoke His words into the earth. The earth is NOT His own being. NITB.<<<
This misunderstanding is happening because, again, it is the result of running ahead of where the thought is. Nothing said has yet left the discussion of the first principle. There is no earth yet in what I am saying.
(See next post)