The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by darinhouston » Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:32 pm

dizerner wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:16 pm
The rest of his arguments only apply to the orthodox understanding of the hypostatic union, they do not at all apply to functional kenosis.
You should note that he is speaking into the theories prevalent in the 1600s. So, that's a fair point - functional kenosis might be worthy of discussion - many of his arguments here (and elsewhere) might well bear on functional kenosis as well, depending on what you mean by the term. That's a fairly recent theory and I believe is largely thought to be heretical by most Trinitarians. There is another topic on kenosis I just started and that might be interesting to discuss - the underlying incarnation assumptions are more interesting to me, however.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Jan 09, 2023 2:10 am

The "person" addressed "Lord" 8 times in Psalm 102 is Yahweh. Yahweh "abides forever", verse 12, answers prayer, verse 17, and is praised in Jerusalem, verse 21. The nations will fear Him and His glory, verse 16. He looked down from heaven to gaze upon the earth. There can be no doubt that Yahweh is God. There is an actual reference to God or El in the Hebrew in verse 24. He, El, founded the earth, created the heavens, verse 25, and He endures forever, verse 26. He will never die, His years will not come to an end, verses 26 and 27. El then, can also be identified as God, even as Yahweh can.

The author of Hebrews in 1:10-12 is quoting directly from Psalm 102:25-27. Here He is speaking to the Son of God, Jesus, in Hebrews, and yet the same words are said of El or Yahweh in Psalm 102. It is very easy then, to see that Jesus is El or Yahweh, or God.

Therefore to identify Jesus as El or Yahweh, has great significance, since all of them are God. This agrees with Hebrews 1:8-9, where the Son is called God or Elohim, yet another name for God.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:23 pm

I would like to quote a few more verses, but I do so at the risk of being accused of using a machine gun.
John the Baptist said in John 3:31: "He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who is from heaven is above all."

Jesus said: "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world." John 8:23

Apparently the apostle John himself uses the machine gun method in John 6:

Verse 33 - "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven ..."
Verse 38 - "For I have come down out of heaven ..."
Verse 41 - " ...He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven."
Verse 42 - " ..."How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?"
Verse 50 - "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven ..."
Verse 51 - "I am the living bread which came down out of heaven; ..."
Verse 58 - "This is the bread which came down out of heaven ..."

We know that the bread, the bread of God, and the living bread are all Jesus speaking figuratively. But the "comes down out of heaven" phrase is literally a reference to His "relocating" from heaven to earth. How do we know this? John again gives us the confirmation of that in John 8:

John 8:28-29 - "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father. His disciples said, 'Lo, now you are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech.'"

So Jesus:
1. Comes from above
2. Is not of this world
3. Is above all
4. Is from heaven
5. Came down out of heaven
6. Came forth from the Father
7. Came into the world
8. Left the world
9. Went to the Father
10. Was speaking plainly
11. Was not using a figure of speech

dizerner

Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dizerner » Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:59 pm

If Jesus were speaking plainly and not using a figure of speech about coming down out of heaven, that indicates a real change in location, right?

If he were to be actively using his omnipresence, we cannot truly say he "left" some place and "came" to some other place, isn't that logical?

So when we read "the Word became flesh" wouldn't it be rather dishonest to instead think it means "the Word added on flesh"?

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:47 am

dizerner wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:59 pm
If Jesus were speaking plainly and not using a figure of speech about coming down out of heaven, that indicates a real change in location, right?

If he were to be actively using his omnipresence, we cannot truly say he "left" some place and "came" to some other place, isn't that logical?

So when we read "the Word became flesh" wouldn't it be rather dishonest to instead think it means "the Word added on flesh"?
1.Yes.
2. It seems that Jesus set aside His omnipresence to come to the earth.
3, Yes.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:07 pm

dizerner wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:59 pm
If Jesus were speaking plainly and not using a figure of speech about coming down out of heaven, that indicates a real change in location, right?

If he were to be actively using his omnipresence, we cannot truly say he "left" some place and "came" to some other place, isn't that logical?

So when we read "the Word became flesh" wouldn't it be rather dishonest to instead think it means "the Word added on flesh"?
I'm rethinking my answer to your second question, after considering some particular verses. I'm also rethinking my statement that Jesus gave up almost all of His omnipresence and other attributes of God.

Jesus said, "For where two or three are gathered in My name, there am I among them." Matthew 18:20 This was while He was still on earth. So He came down out of heaven and came to the earth, apparently without losing His attribute of being everywhere at once. He could be anywhere where people were gathered in His name, simultaneously, and yet still be in one location.

He also said, "And behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:20 This was after He rose from the dead, so He is still omnipresent.

Also He told Nathanael that He saw him under the fig tree. This is more than omniscience - He actually SAW Nathanael. So again, He can be in two places at once.

Again, Jesus said that if we keep His word, that He and the Father will come to us and make their home with us, so Jesus is omnipresent. John 14:23

No prophet or apostle could or can do these things.

Regarding your third question, it would be dishonest to think it means something other than what it says it means.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dizerner » Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:36 pm

Great points, Dwight.

One might "push back" that Christ could say he was with people through the Holy Spirit.

But I think you make good points.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:51 pm

I might "push back" on your "push back" and say that that's not what He said, i.e. He did not say that "I will be with you in the form of the Holy Spirit", He said that He Himself would be with and in us.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dizerner » Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:34 pm

By implication then you would have to insist the Holy Spirit does not connect us to Christ.

I think that's an untenable Biblical position to take.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:59 pm

dizerner wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:34 pm
By implication then you would have to insist the Holy Spirit does not connect us to Christ.

I think that's an untenable Biblical position to take.
I'm just taking Him at His word. How He does it is up to Him.

Post Reply

Return to “Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology”