The Deity of Jesus

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:32 pm

The New Testament wastes no time in revealing to us who Jesus is. In Matthew 1:20 appears to Joseph in a dream and tells him, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He Himself will save His people from their sins.

Never had there been a human born this way, where the Holy Spirit Himself caused the conception of the baby. Even John the Baptist, (of whom Jesus said, "I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; ...") was not conceived like this.

So Jesus had a human mother, but God as His Father. (Here we see that the Father IS the Holy Spirit, and yet we also know that they are distinct) So is He human or is He God? Matthew immediately gives us the answer, in verses 22-23, where he quotes Isaiah 7:14, "Behold, the virgin shall be with child (He is human), and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which translated means, 'God with us' (He is God)". Matthew does not say here that He is God's representative, or a great prophet (although He was both of those), but that He is God - with us. So He is human and He is God.

Let's not forget the angel, who appeared to the shepherds on the day of His birth, who said,"Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people (Jesus is for Gentiles too!); for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ (Messiah), the Lord ... And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, 'Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men of good will.' "

No other birth on record elicited such a reaction, in heaven and on the earth!

If there is still doubt, Matthew tells us the story of the wise men next, who came from the east, to WORSHIP the King of the Jews. Matthew 2:2 Jesus may have been about 1 1/2 years old at that time. But we have no record of ANY great man of God, or prophet of God, who was worshiped at birth or as a toddler. That would have been idolatry for a Jew to worship a human. So it appears that God had these foreigners come to show the Jews and US, that it's not only okay to worship Jesus - it's commanded! Why? Because we ought to worship God.

But back to the first point. Conception by the Holy Spirit in the womb of a woman - without a human father - requires that that which is conceived is not only human but also beyond human - something from the Father and also something from the mother. Of course Gabriel called Him the Son of God.

dizerner

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dizerner » Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:49 pm

Yes, and of course it's very important to explain why God became a man—to bridge the infinite gap with a world under the curse of rebellion from original sin.

God set up his own righteous and holy rules and we are prone to question why he did it a certain way—but we can know they are both good and necessary.

This is why the doctrine of vicarious substitution, mystical union with Christ, original sin, and penal atonement are some of the most targeted and attacked.

We need a solution to our problem, and this Savior is our substitute.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:42 am

dizerner wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:49 pm
Yes, and of course it's very important to explain why God became a man—to bridge the infinite gap with a world under the curse of rebellion from original sin.

God set up his own righteous and holy rules and we are prone to question why he did it a certain way—but we can know they are both good and necessary.

This is why the doctrine of vicarious substitution, mystical union with Christ, original sin, and penal atonement are some of the most targeted and attacked.

We need a solution to our problem, and this Savior is our substitute.
The best explanation as to why God became a man, in my understanding, is given to us by angels.

First, an angel of the Lord appears to Joseph in a dream in Matthew 1:20-21: " ... and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

Second, Gabriel appears to Mary in Luke 1:31-33: " ...and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."

Can you give me a simplified description of what each of these four doctrines teach?

dizerner

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dizerner » Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:41 pm

Sure.

Basically Christ lived a perfect life as a substitute for what we owe God.

Then after living perfectly, he was punished for all our sins.

But more than that, he was the second Adam. He judged the sin nature we are all born with from Adam's sin, so that we can reckon it dead.

Then it is our faith that puts us into spiritual union with Christ, so we benefit from his Work.

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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Jan 14, 2023 12:30 am

dizerner wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:41 pm
Sure.

Basically Christ lived a perfect life as a substitute for what we owe God.

Then after living perfectly, he was punished for all our sins.

But more than that, he was the second Adam. He judged the sin nature we are all born with from Adam's sin, so that we can reckon it dead.

Then it is our faith that puts us into spiritual union with Christ, so we benefit from his Work.
I'm not convinced that we are born with a sin nature from Adam's sin. I don't see that in the Bible. I believe we all sin, but not necessarily from birth. Maybe when we reach the age of accountability, which seems to be different for each person. The idea that the sin nature, which is not a Bible term, comes down through the man, is totally not found in the Bible. The Bible does say that a man should not be punished for his father's sin, so we cannot be blamed for Adam's sin - only for our own. Much of this, we can't pin down, because the Bible doesn't.

dizerner

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dizerner » Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:18 am

Well you are punished for Adam's sin to live in a fallen world even if you are born completely pure and righteous.

So the way you are interpreting it obviously cannot be correct.

There is tons and tons of verses saying we are born in sin and there is no good thing in our flesh and no one good but God.

It's not a lack of verses—it's an insistence to change all their meanings, and no one can argue against a pre-commitment, it's impossible.

Billions of people all sin, but it's not a nature, it's just a weird coincidence because no one can say no to temptations.

We are crucified with Christ—our old man, our flesh, the first Adam, the sin that lives within us, there's a hundred names for it.

No need for literally being crucified WITH Christ if all he came to do was pay for our sins and keep giving us reboots.

I'd pray some more about it, because the heart of it is a self-righteous view of what the human nature can achieve before God.

Peace in Christ.

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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:48 am

dizerner wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:18 am
Well you are punished for Adam's sin to live in a fallen world even if you are born completely pure and righteous.

So the way you are interpreting it obviously cannot be correct.

There is tons and tons of verses saying we are born in sin and there is no good thing in our flesh and no one good but God.

It's not a lack of verses—it's an insistence to change all their meanings, and no one can argue against a pre-commitment, it's impossible.

Billions of people all sin, but it's not a nature, it's just a weird coincidence because no one can say no to temptations.

We are crucified with Christ—our old man, our flesh, the first Adam, the sin that lives within us, there's a hundred names for it.

No need for literally being crucified WITH Christ if all he came to do was pay for our sins and keep giving us reboots.

I'd pray some more about it, because the heart of it is a self-righteous view of what the human nature can achieve before God.

Peace in Christ.
Sure, we experience suffering in this world because of Adam's sin, but not eternal judgment in the next world because of it, IMO.
Actually, I don't know more than a handful of verses that appear to say that we are born in sin. Maybe you could show me verses that conclusively say that. Ps. 51:5 can be taken to mean David's mother's sin, not his. Romans 5:12 says that death spread to all men, BECAUSE all sinned, not necessarily because Adam sinned. It also says that because Adam sinned, that sin entered into the world - it doesn't say that we inherited that sin through our birth. Remember Jesus said to let the little children come to him, for of such is the kingdom of heaven. So if these children had a sin "nature", then God apparently overlooked that because they had not reached the age of accountability. How do you see that?

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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:38 am

We're supposed to love Jesus as much as we love God:
Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."

We're supposed to honor the Son with the same honor that we honor the Father:
John 5:23 -" ... so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father."

We're supposed to have faith in Jesus, even as we have faith in God:
Galatians 2:16 - " ... knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law, but through faith in Christ Jesus."

We're supposed to worship Jesus, even as we worship God:
Matthew 28:9 - " ... And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."

We're supposed to have fellowship with Jesus even as we do with the Father:
1 John 1:3 - " ... and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ."

We're supposed to call on the name of Jesus, even as we call on God:
1 Corinthians 1:2 - "... with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ ...".

We're supposed to believe that Jesus is our Creator, our Shepherd, our Redeemer, our Savior, our Lord, our Judge, even as we know God is:
Colossians 1:16 - "For by Him all things were created ..."
1 Peter 5:4 - "And when the Chief Shepherd appears ..."
Romans 3:24 - " ... through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; ..."
Titus 2:13 - " ... our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, ... "
Philemon 1:3 - " ... and the Lord Jesus Christ ..."
John 5:22 - " ... but He has given all judgment to the Son, ... "

We're supposed to believe that Jesus is our LIght, our Life, our Rock, our Hope, our Eternal Life, our Resurrection and we know God is all of those:

And yet, somehow, we're supposed to believe that Jesus is NOT God???

dizerner

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dizerner » Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:44 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:48 am
Sure, we experience suffering in this world because of Adam's sin, but not eternal judgment in the next world because of it, IMO.
Actually, I don't know more than a handful of verses that appear to say that we are born in sin. Maybe you could show me verses that conclusively say that. Ps. 51:5 can be taken to mean David's mother's sin, not his. Romans 5:12 says that death spread to all men, BECAUSE all sinned, not necessarily because Adam sinned. It also says that because Adam sinned, that sin entered into the world - it doesn't say that we inherited that sin through our birth. Remember Jesus said to let the little children come to him, for of such is the kingdom of heaven. So if these children had a sin "nature", then God apparently overlooked that because they had not reached the age of accountability. How do you see that?
There are attributes children have that is not inherent self-righteousness.

They often have the attributes of trust and simplicity.

You can find "ways around" any passage that says we are "by nature children of wrath," or "turn aside from the womb," or have "no good thing in our flesh."

Well, it just means certain people, it just means certain ways, it just means this or that.

No amount of language can prevent a re-explanation and re-interpretation of what is said.

This is why I encourage people instead to ask the Holy Spirit "Am I inherently a good and pure and righteous person in my nature and core?"

I have asked, and been clearly answered.

And I firmly believe that anyone who stops arguing on the internet, and takes the time to sincerely and genuinely ask God, will be answered!

And the answer was very clear to me personally, as clear as Jesus being God:

No, I am not an inherently pure being.

That is the sin of self-righteousness.

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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:34 pm

First of all, I prayed sincerely just as you suggested, and will continue to. I pray often that God would lead me to the truth that will set me free. When you presented four doctrines quite matter-of-factly, I was not familiar with all of them, so I asked you for a description of each. Then I told you that I wasn't convinced of your conclusions and gave my reasons why. You imply that since you sincerely asked God for the truth, that He answered you, and therefore, my thinking otherwise must be wrong. I assume then that anyone else who disagrees with your conclusions, in your opinion, must also be wrong, mature Christians included. I did not start an argument. I simply stated what I see in scripture, at this point in time, which happens to disagree with your viewpoint, so immediately you jump to the conclusion that I am arguing, instead of praying, You imply that God will give me the same answer that He gave you. In fact, even Steve Gregg, is not totally decided on this issue, as are many other mature Christians. I pray daily, seeking God's will and His kingdom, and wisdom, and will continue to.
As I said in a previous post, some issues in the Bible are very hard to pin down - many of which we may not have the answers to until we see Jesus. I think this is definitely one of those issues, but I will continue to seek truth until I die or Jesus comes. I am always open to other viewpoints, but when they are presented to me as absolute truth that God showed that person, and that if I sincerely prayed, that I would come to the same conclusion - then a red flag goes up, and know that that person has a huge attitude problem. In fact, that only throws more doubt in their supposed revealed truth, that they received after sincerely praying. We should be able to disagree with each other without being accused of insincerity or prayerlessness, or loving to argue. Those are false assumptions.

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