The Deity of Jesus

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:11 am

dizerner wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:37 am
Very much Sui generis (again, not "mere" man, but truly human). Of course, he's unique not since he was born of a virgin without human male DNA contributing to his conception. But, I don't believe he helped create all things, his living in us is by the spirit and is a bit of a mystery but also post-resurrection/exaltation, the Father raised him from death, and so forth. I'm not sure what you mean by "granted life in himself."
John clearly states this, and you have to reject Paul as well.

You want to make it a "unique" human but these are NON-human attributes that NO other human has.

I'm not comfortable with that level of disrespect for Scripture.

God bless!
I understand that - but I want to know what YOU think it means. And I respect what it ACTUALLY says, not what you imply it means. With all due respect, it's not your comfort I seek, but Truth.

I note that this passage doesn't imply that Jesus has life in himself as an inherent quality (whatever it does mean). In fact, if you show the proper level of respect for Scripture, I believe it actually suggests that Jesus does NOT have this inherent aspect which God has since it says that God granted the Son to have this life - not that he already had it (which it implies God does) or that he granted it to himself (which would be sort of an odd thing to say). The next sentence further confirms that Jesus didn't have the inherent authority to judge but -- again -- was given this authority by God.

I also note that you have misquoted it, seemingly in an effort to make it mean what you want it to." Your quote implies that Jesus was the one which grants his own life. The passage clearly states otherwise. That's not the sort of "respect" for the word that I would think one would have if honestly seeking to understand scripture, and especially for one who is criticizing another's respect for the word.

But I am truly curious about what you think having life "in himself" means - he came also so that "we" can have life - is that different than having life "in ourselves?" Is this some sort of figure of speech or is it just a way to say he was filled with the spirit or something along those lines. It can't mean some sort of "inherent" quality since it was "given" to him by God. So I'm honestly curious what that means if not simply "having spiritual life" (contrasted with physical material life and breath).

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darinhouston
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:05 am

Just to clarify on the "mere" man issue - the problem I have with that term is it is akin to saying "plain old normal ordinary nothing special everyman." I believe he was a real, actual, man, but extraordinary and unique in all creation. So, I reject "mere" man as somewhat derogatory and intended to lampoon my view. I just won't denigrate Jesus by saying he was a "mere" anything. FWIW, many Trinitarian scholars even reject the term "human" for Jesus.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:58 am

I believe and respect the scripture which, in Luke 1:35 says: "The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and FOR THAT REASON THE HOLY CHILD SHALL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD'."

So, prior to the incarnation, THERE WAS NO "THE SON OF GOD", with a couple of exceptions - Adam was called the son of God because God directly created him, Luke 4:38 and "the sons of God" are mentioned in Job 1:6, which could refer to angels and maybe even saints who were already in heaven.

So we know that Jesus Who was the Word PRIOR TO His birth, HAD ALL THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD. Being God, He had life in Himself and He sovereignly exercised all judgment. But when God became a man in Jesus, in one sense He greatly limited Himself by living in this newly created body, the body of Jesus. But the Father wants us to know that His attributes of sovereign judgment and having life in Himself were not "left in heaven", so to speak, but were given to His newly created (that is physically created) and newly born Son. "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son." John 5:22 and "He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man" verse 27. Then in verse 26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself."

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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:36 pm

So that answers your thoughts, Darin, about the Son not inherently having the attributes of having life in Himself, and having all judgment. IMO He previously had both of those inherently, as the WORD, which was God, but now, after His incarnation and a newly created body, Jesus tells us that the Father also gave Him those attributes as the Son of God. There's no change in possessing those particular attributes, but there is a change in the name of the One Who possesses them. First, the WORD, then the Son of God.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:28 pm

That doesn't really "answer" anything - it just posits your position/theory.

dizerner

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dizerner » Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:17 am

I encourage anyone who experiences doubts about the magnificence of Christ and his worthiness to be divine to simply read and pray over Colossians 1:15-20 every day for a month.

If you really are sincere—and really want this answer—this would be a trivial effort, and God will answer it. But what I find people do is rely on their own intellect and feelings instead of directly asking God, and then spend all their time listening to other people's intellect in their sermons and books.

If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God (Jn. 7:17 NKJ)

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darinhouston
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:14 am

dizerner wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:17 am
I encourage anyone who experiences doubts about the magnificence of Christ and his worthiness to be divine to simply read and pray over Colossians 1:15-20 every day for a month.

If you really are sincere—and really want this answer—this would be a trivial effort, and God will answer it. But what I find people do is rely on their own intellect and feelings instead of directly asking God, and then spend all their time listening to other people's intellect in their sermons and books.

If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God (Jn. 7:17 NKJ)
Yes, a very good passage - one which we have discussed at great length. Contemplating his supremacy is great and this passage is all about that - but as it pertains to this particular discussion topic, it actually says God's fullness DWELLED IN him, so that logically supports the position throughout scripture that he represents and is indwelt by God and therefore is not himself actually God. It is also notable that "through him" God reconciles the world "to himself" (not to themselves). If God wanted us to know that Jesus was part of some god-head or such, this is just not the kind of language one would expect. It is actually the sort of language one would expect by most non-trinitarian positions. It is further worth contemplating that passages such as Jeremiah 23:24 speak of God filling things like "heaven and earth." That doesn't make them God.

My personal view of this "fullness" language is that God infills all believers but we all remain broken vessels until our own resurrection and are only filled in part with the holy spirit. Jesus was not so broken since he was conceived and born without the taint of original sin and therefore has the fullness of the holy spirit - at the very least after his exaltation. Much can be said about the creation language - whether original creation or new creation or the spheres of creation detailed in the passage and so forth, but that is beyond this topic.

The pre-incarnate prospects apart form deity and any role in creation that can be inferred from this passage is quite another subject and we have spent a lot of time on that, neither of which are determinative on the deity question (again, even Arius believed in a pre-incarnate Jesus who played a role in the Genesis creation). The temple was not God though God dwelt in it. Jesus is (in a very abstract way) like the temple and so is the corporate body of believers in that God dwells/has dwelt in them. That does not mean they are God, though it can be said that "in them" God dwells among men.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:51 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:28 pm
That doesn't really "answer" anything - it just posits your position/theory.
True, I should have said that it was a response to your thoughts or your position/theory that Jesus did not inherently possess those attributes, whereas I believe He did.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:25 pm

dizerner wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:17 am
I encourage anyone who experiences doubts about the magnificence of Christ and his worthiness to be divine to simply read and pray over Colossians 1:15-20 every day for a month.

If you really are sincere—and really want this answer—this would be a trivial effort, and God will answer it. But what I find people do is rely on their own intellect and feelings instead of directly asking God, and then spend all their time listening to other people's intellect in their sermons and books.

If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God (Jn. 7:17 NKJ)
Although you and I agree that Jesus is God, I cannot support your methods to arrive at such truth. I cannot think of ANY spiritual truth that I have believed and/or learned since I was born again in 1970, that bypassed my intellect. In fact, God used Matthew 5:6, "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." to assure me that I was born again. Please don't accuse me of just wanting to argue, that's not my purpose here. My purpose, by God's grace, is to present the truth of the Bible in simple, easy-to-understand terms. You even relied on your intellect (and very likely, your feelings) to come up with your "method". If we take people's intellect out of sermons and books, there would be nothing left.

dizerner

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dizerner » Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:05 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:25 pm
If we take people's intellect out of sermons and books, there would be nothing left.
Just a bald assertion based in unbelief of supernatural realities.

The natural man does not understand the things of God for they are spiritually discerned by the Spirit.

It literally flat out says that, and is backed up by hundreds of other verses describing the need for God to reveal truth.

I can't entertain a spirit of unbelief exalting naturalistic ways to know God through intellect, sorry.

Too many people rely on their own intellect and spend all their time on the sermons and books of other peoples' intellects, instead of simply, directly and persistently asking God. The reason I am completely confident about what I believe is not because someone convinced me or I figured it out, but I actually spent the time humbling myself and just directly asking God for prolonged periods of time. When I delve into other people's prayer lives who believe some false thing, I have not yet found a single one who has consistently done this. You can "interpret" the Bible to literally be anything, and this is why you have so many factions all completely convinced of their unique interpretation.

It would be enlightening to see that logic is not what guides us into beliefs—the Bible attributes false doctrines to deceiving spirits, not to intellectually or morally inferior people.

It is the pride of man that insists his intellect discovers God and his truth.

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