The Deity of Jesus

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:35 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:25 pm
dizerner wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:17 am
I encourage anyone who experiences doubts about the magnificence of Christ and his worthiness to be divine to simply read and pray over Colossians 1:15-20 every day for a month.

If you really are sincere—and really want this answer—this would be a trivial effort, and God will answer it. But what I find people do is rely on their own intellect and feelings instead of directly asking God, and then spend all their time listening to other people's intellect in their sermons and books.

If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God (Jn. 7:17 NKJ)
Although you and I agree that Jesus is God, I cannot support your methods to arrive at such truth. I cannot think of ANY spiritual truth that I have believed and/or learned since I was born again in 1970, that bypassed my intellect. In fact, God used Matthew 5:6, "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." to assure me that I was born again. Please don't accuse me of just wanting to argue, that's not my purpose here. My purpose, by God's grace, is to present the truth of the Bible in simple, easy-to-understand terms. You even relied on your intellect (and very likely, your feelings) to come up with your "method". If we take people's intellect out of sermons and books, there would be nothing left.
I'm with you on this one.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:42 pm

Mark 5:19-20 The story of the demoniac among the tombs - Jesus cast the demons out by permitting them to go into the herd of pigs. The man who had been demon-possessed implored Jesus that he might leave with Him and his disciples in the boat. But Jesus tells him, "Go home to your people and report to them what great things the LORD has done for you, and how He had mercy on you." Then Mark adds, "And he went away and began to proclaim in Decapolis what great things JESUS had done for him ..."

We know that "Lord" here could be Jesus referring to Himself, or it could be Jesus referring to the LORD GOD.

We get a clue as to which it is in the same account in Luke 8:39, where Jesus says: "Return to your house and describe what great things GOD has done for you." Then Luke adds, "So he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what great things JESUS had done for him."

So, from that clue, we see that Jesus is referring to the LORD GOD, yet both Mark and Luke report that the man proclaims JESUS as the One who had delivered him.

Some will say that Jesus is simply acting on behalf of God, so it's really God who delivered him. Some will also say that when we give praise to Jesus, we are really praising God for what He did through Jesus. Or that we are praising Jesus because God allows that, even though Jesus is not God.

All of that is confused mumbo-jumbo. The truth is that the Lord God and the Lord Jesus are equally One and that their names are used both individually and interchangeably in the New Testament, and these verses are a prime example of just that.

When the former demoniac was proclaiming JESUS as his deliverer, he was obeying Jesus Who told him to give glory to THE LORD GOD. JESUS IS THE LORD GOD! Even the demoniac knew that. Unless we are to believe that the demoniac disobeyed Jesus, that He gave credit to Jesus instead of God. That's very unlikely, since his whole world was instantly changed. Luke tells us that he was SITTING DOWN AT THE FEET OF JESUS, CLOTHED AND IN HIS RIGHT MIND. AND HE WAS BEGGING JESUS THAT HE MIGHT BE WITH HIM, WHEN HE LEFT WITH HIS DISCIPLES. He loved Jesus - the last thing that he wanted to do was to disobey Him.

dizerner

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dizerner » Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:36 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:35 pm
I'm with you on this one.
Just not with the Bible.

But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. (1 Cor. 2:10 NKJ)

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:47 pm

dizerner wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:36 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:35 pm
I'm with you on this one.
Just not with the Bible.

But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. (1 Cor. 2:10 NKJ)
That's really uncalled for - we may differ on what the Bible says, but if we can't grant this to one another, you're on the wrong forum.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:49 pm

The problem you have, Dizerner, is that in order for you to show us from the Bible that your method is the correct way to determine truth, you would have to rely on your intellect. You seem to think (which requires your intellect) that you don't rely on your intellect just as much as the rest of us, but you do.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:52 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:42 pm
Mark 5:19-20 The story of the demoniac among the tombs - Jesus cast the demons out by permitting them to go into the herd of pigs. The man who had been demon-possessed implored Jesus that he might leave with Him and his disciples in the boat. But Jesus tells him, "Go home to your people and report to them what great things the LORD has done for you, and how He had mercy on you." Then Mark adds, "And he went away and began to proclaim in Decapolis what great things JESUS had done for him ..."

We know that "Lord" here could be Jesus referring to Himself, or it could be Jesus referring to the LORD GOD.

We get a clue as to which it is in the same account in Luke 8:39, where Jesus says: "Return to your house and describe what great things GOD has done for you." Then Luke adds, "So he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what great things JESUS had done for him."

So, from that clue, we see that Jesus is referring to the LORD GOD, yet both Mark and Luke report that the man proclaims JESUS as the One who had delivered him.

Some will say that Jesus is simply acting on behalf of God, so it's really God who delivered him. Some will also say that when we give praise to Jesus, we are really praising God for what He did through Jesus. Or that we are praising Jesus because God allows that, even though Jesus is not God.

All of that is confused mumbo-jumbo. The truth is that the Lord God and the Lord Jesus are equally One and that their names are used both individually and interchangeably in the New Testament, and these verses are a prime example of just that.

When the former demoniac was proclaiming JESUS as his deliverer, he was obeying Jesus Who told him to give glory to THE LORD GOD. JESUS IS THE LORD GOD! Even the demoniac knew that. Unless we are to believe that the demoniac disobeyed Jesus, that He gave credit to Jesus instead of God. That's very unlikely, since his whole world was instantly changed. Luke tells us that he was SITTING DOWN AT THE FEET OF JESUS, CLOTHED AND IN HIS RIGHT MIND. AND HE WAS BEGGING JESUS THAT HE MIGHT BE WITH HIM, WHEN HE LEFT WITH HIS DISCIPLES. He loved Jesus - the last thing that he wanted to do was to disobey Him.
It's not mumbo jumbo - it's exactly what we see in scripture - God did such and such for (or to) Israel when it was others doing it. It's a both and. Both Jesus did it (in the power of the Spirit) and God did it (through Jesus). It's really not that complicated. When we're on a mission for our local congregation - storm relief or whatever, it's not uncommon to hear people talk about what our church did for them in some contexts and also to tell us thanks for what we did. This is just the way normal people talk when agency is involved.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:26 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:52 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:42 pm
Mark 5:19-20 The story of the demoniac among the tombs - Jesus cast the demons out by permitting them to go into the herd of pigs. The man who had been demon-possessed implored Jesus that he might leave with Him and his disciples in the boat. But Jesus tells him, "Go home to your people and report to them what great things the LORD has done for you, and how He had mercy on you." Then Mark adds, "And he went away and began to proclaim in Decapolis what great things JESUS had done for him ..."

We know that "Lord" here could be Jesus referring to Himself, or it could be Jesus referring to the LORD GOD.

We get a clue as to which it is in the same account in Luke 8:39, where Jesus says: "Return to your house and describe what great things GOD has done for you." Then Luke adds, "So he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what great things JESUS had done for him."

So, from that clue, we see that Jesus is referring to the LORD GOD, yet both Mark and Luke report that the man proclaims JESUS as the One who had delivered him.

Some will say that Jesus is simply acting on behalf of God, so it's really God who delivered him. Some will also say that when we give praise to Jesus, we are really praising God for what He did through Jesus. Or that we are praising Jesus because God allows that, even though Jesus is not God.

All of that is confused mumbo-jumbo. The truth is that the Lord God and the Lord Jesus are equally One and that their names are used both individually and interchangeably in the New Testament, and these verses are a prime example of just that.

When the former demoniac was proclaiming JESUS as his deliverer, he was obeying Jesus Who told him to give glory to THE LORD GOD. JESUS IS THE LORD GOD! Even the demoniac knew that. Unless we are to believe that the demoniac disobeyed Jesus, that He gave credit to Jesus instead of God. That's very unlikely, since his whole world was instantly changed. Luke tells us that he was SITTING DOWN AT THE FEET OF JESUS, CLOTHED AND IN HIS RIGHT MIND. AND HE WAS BEGGING JESUS THAT HE MIGHT BE WITH HIM, WHEN HE LEFT WITH HIS DISCIPLES. He loved Jesus - the last thing that he wanted to do was to disobey Him.
It's not mumbo jumbo - it's exactly what we see in scripture - God did such and such for (or to) Israel when it was others doing it. It's a both and. Both Jesus did it (in the power of the Spirit) and God did it (through Jesus). It's really not that complicated. When we're on a mission for our local congregation - storm relief or whatever, it's not uncommon to hear people talk about what our church did for them in some contexts and also to tell us thanks for what we did. This is just the way normal people talk when agency is involved.
Normal people don't fall on their face at the feet of the "agent" and worship Him, like all believers do before God, or else they would be rebuked by a true believer. Matthew 2:11; Matthew 14:33; Matthew 28:9; Matthew 28:17; Luke 17:15-18; John 9:38; Cornelius tried that before Peter, and Peter rebuked him and told him that he too, was just a man. Normal people don't call the "agent" God, but Jesus is called God by several people in Scripture: Isaiah, Matthew, John, Thomas, Peter, Paul, the author of Hebrews and by God Himself in Hebrews. In Luke 17:18 and in Luke 18:19, Jesus implies very strongly that He Himself is God. He also strongly implies in Matthew 28:19 that the God head is a trinity.

So, no, to say that we should worship Someone who is not God IS mumbo-jumbo. It would be more accurate for you to say that Jesus is not your God, which is a true statement.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:34 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:26 pm

Normal people don't fall on their face at the feet of the "agent" and worship Him, like all believers do before God, or else they would be rebuked by a true believer. Matthew 2:11; Matthew 14:33; Matthew 28:9; Matthew 28:17; Luke 17:15-18; John 9:38; Cornelius tried that before Peter, and Peter rebuked him and told him that he too, was just a man. Normal people don't call the "agent" God, but Jesus is called God by several people in Scripture: Isaiah, Matthew, John, Thomas, Peter, Paul, the author of Hebrews and by God Himself in Hebrews. In Luke 17:18 and in Luke 18:19, Jesus implies very strongly that He Himself is God. He also strongly implies in Matthew 28:19 that the God head is a trinity.

So, no, to say that we should worship Someone who is not God IS mumbo-jumbo. It would be more accurate for you to say that Jesus is not your God, which is a true statement.
You're missing the point and changing your argument completely.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:18 pm

The point was that the story of the demoniac shows us clearly that Jesus is God. You deny that and say that Jesus is just the agency through which God works, but He is not God, just like a church member represents his church, and both receive honor. Then I responded with - if Jesus is just an agent of God, then why is He treated like only God is treated? He is worshiped and even called God and even calls Himself God. I think I'm tracking this pretty well.
What point have I missed?

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:49 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:18 pm
The point was that the story of the demoniac shows us clearly that Jesus is God. You deny that and say that Jesus is just the agency through which God works, but He is not God, just like a church member represents his church, and both receive honor. Then I responded with - if Jesus is just an agent of God, then why is He treated like only God is treated? He is worshiped and even called God and even calls Himself God. I think I'm tracking this pretty well.
What point have I missed?
You said this was mumbo jumbo.
dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:18 pm
Some will say that Jesus is simply acting on behalf of God, so it's really God who delivered him. Some will also say that when we give praise to Jesus, we are really praising God for what He did through Jesus. Or that we are praising Jesus because God allows that, even though Jesus is not God.

All of that is confused mumbo-jumbo
I responded to that point and you pretended something else was mumbo jumbo.

Post Reply

Return to “Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology”