God and the Word of God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Re: God and the Word of God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:23 am

Correction: I meant to say "how we could better understand John 1" vs. "translate".

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Homer
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Re: God and the Word of God

Post by Homer » Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:12 pm

It seems that if John was not plain enough to be understood in what he wrote about The Word then it is not necessary to be believed and is only a curiosity.

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darinhouston
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Re: God and the Word of God

Post by darinhouston » Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:07 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:19 am
So the Gospel of Thomas was discovered at Nag Hammadi, with it's early collection of 114 "sayings of Jesus". Number 114 is:

14) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become
a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will
enter the kingdom of heaven."
The Gospel
According to Thomas

I agree with you that we should look, to a certain extent, at historical background, customs, and even beliefs of early "Christians", but when you come across blasphemous lies about what Jesus said, then you know why these writings were considered heresy. How about this one?

Jesus said, "When you disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments and
place them under your feet like little children and tread on them, then will you see the son
of the living one, and you will not be afraid"

Could you explain how we can better translate John 1, by reading this blasphemous trash?
When you go to the library, you find all sorts of things - this one is trash but it was a tremendous find of all sorts of writings, giving us an indication of how diverse the groups were and what sort of things they believed. I'm not suggesting those things have truth value, but understanding the errors of the day can help understand the context of what John was "writing into."

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darinhouston
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Re: God and the Word of God

Post by darinhouston » Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:08 pm

Homer wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:12 pm
It seems that if John was not plain enough to be understood in what he wrote about The Word then it is not necessary to be believed and is only a curiosity.
Some things are clearly understand in their time but can be colored by traditions of men and shifts in culture and language. Anyone who spends even a little bit of time looking into the various views of this passage (or even just the term logos) over the millennia can hardly say it's a simple straightforward didactic teaching on the origin and deity of Jesus that should be plainly evident to everyone who reads it.

dizerner

Re: God and the Word of God

Post by dizerner » Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:51 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:08 pm
Some things are clearly understand in their time but can be colored by traditions of men and shifts in culture and language. Anyone who spends even a little bit of time looking into the various views of this passage (or even just the term logos) over the millennia can hardly say it's a simple straightforward didactic teaching on the origin and deity of Jesus that should be plainly evident to everyone who reads it.
The assertion one cannot possibly know what the Bible is saying without reading a hundred other opinions of people many of whom were unregenerate and often even demonized, is about the most unbiblical thing one could even say.

"I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. (Matt. 11:25-26 NKJ)

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dwight92070
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Re: God and the Word of God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:09 am

Let's see, we have other scripture that tells us that Jesus is the Word and that He is eternal, that He was with the Father before coming to the earth, and that He is God. Other scripture tells us that all things were created through Him and by Him and for Him, and in Him is eternal life, and that He is the Light of the world. Other scripture tells us that Jesus (or God) became flesh and dwelt among man.

So there's really nothing new in John 1, that is not revealed throughout the New Testament. It just confirms all the other verses that tell us the same things.

To search for some other hidden meaning that is not obvious is, at the very least, a waste of time - especially since the only reason one would look for something other than what is plainly said, is because they don't want it to mean what it says. So they must declare it a mystery that can't be solved, because it doesn't fit into their doctrinal box.

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darinhouston
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Re: God and the Word of God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:48 am

dizerner wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:51 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:08 pm
Some things are clearly understand in their time but can be colored by traditions of men and shifts in culture and language. Anyone who spends even a little bit of time looking into the various views of this passage (or even just the term logos) over the millennia can hardly say it's a simple straightforward didactic teaching on the origin and deity of Jesus that should be plainly evident to everyone who reads it.
The assertion one cannot possibly know what the Bible is saying without reading a hundred other opinions of people many of whom were unregenerate and often even demonized, is about the most unbiblical thing one could even say.

"I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. (Matt. 11:25-26 NKJ)
Certainly there are things that can be known clearly on face value from the Scriptures themselves, but it's simply true that some things require historic context (and all things require at least some consideration of it). We do this all the time without realizing it - it's just that some context is well understood.

This is one of the most fundamental principles of the traditional evangelical way to understand Scripture.
The historical-grammatical method is a modern Christian hermeneutical method that strives to discover the biblical authors' original intended meaning in the text.[1] According to the historical-grammatical method, if based on an analysis of the grammatical style of a passage (with consideration to its cultural, historical, and literary context), it appears that the author intended to convey an account of events that actually happened, then the text should be taken as representing history; passages should only be interpreted symbolically, poetically, or allegorically if to the best of our understanding, that is what the writer intended to convey to the original audience.[2] It is the primary method of interpretation for many conservative Protestant exegetes who reject the historical-critical method to various degrees (from the complete rejection of historical criticism of some fundamentalist Protestants to the moderated acceptance of it in the Roman Catholic tradition since the Divino afflante Spiritu encyclical letter),[3] in contrast to the overwhelming reliance on historical-critical interpretation in biblical studies at the academic level.

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dwight92070
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Re: God and the Word of God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:08 am

I need to correct myself again. There is, it appears, new information in John 1. We know from Revelation that Jesus is the Word, but we don't know when He was called that, or at least when He was first called that. John tells us: "In the beginning". We might ask, "When was that?" Well, since John tells us "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.", we see that the Word is eternal, because God is eternal. Therefore, we can deduce that Jesus, the Word -God, has always existed. That is, at least, His Spirit, has always existed. But His body and His name, Jesus, it appears, only came into existence through Mary.
On the other hand, even that information could have been deduced from other verses, but, John "nails it down", so that there is no doubt, and even more confirmation.

Darin, since you have studied all the other information that you recommend, what is your conclusion concerning John 1, after looking at all those other sources?

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Homer
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Re: God and the Word of God

Post by Homer » Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:19 am

Well, the perspicuity of scripture has been shown to be a false idea; The reformers were wrong.

There is nothing in the scriptures that can not be explained away, if you try hard enough. Some say we need someone to tell us what the scriptures mean. Looks like we need a Pope.

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darinhouston
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Re: God and the Word of God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:36 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:08 am
I need to correct myself again. There is, it appears, new information in John 1. We know from Revelation that Jesus is the Word, but we don't know when He was called that, or at least when He was first called that. John tells us: "In the beginning". We might ask, "When was that?" Well, since John tells us "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.", we see that the Word is eternal, because God is eternal. Therefore, we can deduce that Jesus, the Word -God, has always existed. That is, at least, His Spirit, has always existed. But His body and His name, Jesus, it appears, only came into existence through Mary.
On the other hand, even that information could have been deduced from other verses, but, John "nails it down", so that there is no doubt, and even more confirmation.

Darin, since you have studied all the other information that you recommend, what is your conclusion concerning John 1, after looking at all those other sources?
I think "in the beginning" is the beginning of the subject of John. And the subject of Mark and John's Epistles and so forth - the gospels -- the subject is the Messiah and the ministry of Christ.

I have various views of what John 1 might mean and none of them is the origin story of Jesus' pre-existence as God.

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