Worship Songs

[Homer]

Dizerner wrote:

You cannot logically separate the Trinity like that, to worship ONE is to worship ALL THREE.

But the words "its all about you Jesus" appear to do just that (separate the Trinity). If its all about Jesus that would seem to say its none about the Father. The words are something I would expect to hear from a modalist.

[dwight92070]

It sounds like your brain is really ticking away here - there's a lot of intellectual stuff being said. This doesn't fit with what you've previously said about relying on our brains. I guess if you do it, it's okay. If we do it, then we are necessarily relying on our brains, instead of God.

Perverse logic.

If one knows spiritual truths and uses spiritual words, the brain is involved but not central, like intuitive truths.

As you can see on here—intellectual logic never does anything to persuade anyone, even you.

I trust the Spirit to communicate what I'm saying and convict the perverse spirit.

Exalting, relying, and depending on the mind is the pride of the flesh.

Your response just proved my point. When I use my brain to point out the obvious, you use your brain and attack me and accuse me of having a perverse spirit and being proud. The actual truth hurts, doesn't it, because it exposes the confusion in your mind? You can't even explain where the line is between "spiritual truths" and "spiritual words" and regular truths and regular words, except to claim that when you speak it, it is "spiritual" - when someone who disagrees with you speaks it, their words are not spiritual - and are deserving of condemnation and attacks.. Nor can you define the line between relying on intellectual logic and trusting in the Spirit. Did you realize that you actually used the words "logically false" in your post"? That, in itself, is a logical contradiction to what you say you believe. This is why what you believe is itself false. Where is the fruit of the Spirit in attacking and condemning me, just because I disagree with you and point out your inconsistencies?

I have listened to Steve Gregg for over a decade now. I have been persuaded of numerous doctrines and truths that he has explained using his intellectual logic and I know that I am not alone. The sheer number of people who call in each week proves that. That disproves your statement that "intellectual logic never does anything to persuade anyone". If that were true, then there would be no universities or colleges, not even Christian universities or colleges. Unfortunately much of the so-called intellectual logic in those schools today is nothing but woke-ism.

[darinhouston]

Dizerner wrote:

You cannot logically separate the Trinity like that, to worship ONE is to worship ALL THREE.

But the words "its all about you Jesus" appear to do just that (separate the Trinity). If its all about Jesus that would seem to say its none about the Father. The words are something I would expect to hear from a modalist.

If something can't be true about one that's not true about the others then there's ZERO value in affirming the separate persons of the Trinity.

[Homer]

Darin,

Could you rephrase that? The double negatives muddy the waters to my 83 year old head.

Thanks, Homer

[darinhouston]

Darin,

Could you rephrase that? The double negatives muddy the waters to my 83 year old head.

Thanks, Homer

I get that! Try this...

If there are distinct persons in the Trinity, then there must be a difference between them or they aren't individual persons. If they MUST be exactly the same in every characteristic and experience, then they aren't distinct from one another and there is only unity, not Trinity.

[dizerner]

If something can't be true about one that's not true about the others then there's ZERO value in affirming the separate persons of the Trinity.

Sure, there's something, but not everything.

The question is, does that one thing exclude the glory of the others? Sharing the same ontology, essence, being, we have to say no.

It's not like it would ever be a sin to worship Jesus "too much," the idea is preposterous and unbiblical.

Nowhere are we commanded to love the Father more than Jesus, and this would be the number one temptation for all Christians under that logic. We are to love Christ more than life, yet no warning not to put him first? God would not just ignore the number one temptation and never warn about it, and let the text constantly flirt with Jesus being glorified precariously close to God as "okay." The very idea is preposterous.

These people that ignore these verses just remind me of this story:

A man is convinced he is dead. His wife and kids are exasperated. They keep telling him he’s not dead. But he continues to insist he’s dead. They try telling him, “Look, you’re not dead; you’re walking and talking and breathing; how can you be dead?” But he continues to insist he is dead. The family finally takes him to a doctor. The doctor pulls out some medical books to demonstrate to the man that dead men do not bleed. After some time, the man admits that dead men do not bleed. The doctor then takes the man’s hand and a needle and pokes the end of his finger. The man starts bleeding. He looks at his finger and says, “What do you know? DEAD MEN DO BLEED!”

This is called "confirmation bias." When we read verses that "look" like Jesus is God, they simply "can't" mean that, because of a pre-commitment not to read them that way.

"What do you know... dead doctrines DO bleed!"

[darinhouston]

If something can't be true about one that's not true about the others then there's ZERO value in affirming the separate persons of the Trinity.

Sure, there's something, but not everything.

The question is, does that one thing exclude the glory of the others? Sharing the same ontology, essence, being, we have to say no.

It's not like it would ever be a sin to worship Jesus "too much," the idea is preposterous and unbiblical.

Nowhere are we commanded to love the Father more than Jesus, and this would be the number one temptation for all Christians under that logic. We are to love Christ more than life, yet no warning not to put him first? God would not just ignore the number one temptation and never warn about it, and let the text constantly flirt with Jesus being glorified precariously close to God as "okay." The very idea is preposterous.

These people that ignore these verses just remind me of this story:

A man is convinced he is dead. His wife and kids are exasperated. They keep telling him he’s not dead. But he continues to insist he’s dead. They try telling him, “Look, you’re not dead; you’re walking and talking and breathing; how can you be dead?” But he continues to insist he is dead. The family finally takes him to a doctor. The doctor pulls out some medical books to demonstrate to the man that dead men do not bleed. After some time, the man admits that dead men do not bleed. The doctor then takes the man’s hand and a needle and pokes the end of his finger. The man starts bleeding. He looks at his finger and says, “What do you know? DEAD MEN DO BLEED!”

This is called "confirmation bias." When we read verses that "look" like Jesus is God, they simply "can't" mean that, because of a pre-commitment not to read them that way.

"What do you know... dead doctrines DO bleed!"

It seems Jesus deflected all glory to His Father (whom he reflected). He was here not for his own glory but to represent his Father and to give his Father glory. If it was good enough for him, it's good enough for me. I honor and obey him as my Lord, but all to the glory of the Father and his role is to mediate and provide access not to himself, per se, but to his Father. I don't necessarily think it's "wrong" (since he's been glorified at God's right hand) unless it is to the exclusion of the Father (which to many it seems to be) but it's not "best" to my mind as it's not what Jesus taught and modeled. To many, they don't even think of the Father when worshipping - most songs are focused on Jesus - not that it's wrong, again, but it does seem to focus attention away from the one that Jesus was pointing to and here to provide access to so that we can give our worship to Him.

[dwight92070]

If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father. If we worship Jesus, we're worshiping the Father. So that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. If we don't love Jesus more than our father and mother, our husband or our wife, our brothers and sisters, our sons and our daughters, and even our own life, then we're not worthy to be His disciple. If we glorify Jesus, we glorify the Father. Do we not understand that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him? Of course we honor, worship, and love the Father. Our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. It was the Father's good pleasure that all the fullness of Deity dwell in HIm, There's no jealousy or competition between them. I and the Father are one.

[dwight92070]

So if we're supposed to love Jesus more than our father, mother, husband, wife, brother, sister, son, daughter, and even our own life - and yet less than the Father, since Jesus is not God, according to you, Darin - could you please explain how that is done? How is that humanly possible to love the Father more than Jesus, since what Jesus requires is our utmost love? Or do you think that we should give Jesus equal or the same love as we give the Father?

[mikew]

If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father. If we worship Jesus, we're worshiping the Father. So that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. If we don't love Jesus more than our father and mother, our husband or our wife, our brothers and sisters, our sons and our daughters, and even our own life, then we're not worthy to be His disciple. If we glorify Jesus, we glorify the Father. Do we not understand that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him? Of course we honor, worship, and love the Father. Our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. It was the Father's good pleasure that all the fullness of Deity dwell in HIm, There's no jealousy or competition between them. I and the Father are one.

Thanks for sharing those words of Jesus "I and the Father are one." That fits with my observation of the shema in Gal 3:20 being inclusive of Jesus.