The Person of the Holy Spirit

[jeremiah]

Hi dizerner,

Apparently you CAN make sense of it.

Or you got really, really lucky.

There's a difference between deciphering the intention of words, and making sense of them

For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. (1 Cor. 2:11 NKJ)

Impersonal forces don't "know" things...

This is part of one of my favorite passages in the scriptures.

This impersonal force stuff will go round and round. What is about these passages that necessitates the holy Spirit being a separate person from God the father or the son?

[darinhouston]

Spiritual matters are always going to be a bit of conjecture as they are only revealed to us in part it seems. But, I don't have a problem seeing the spirit of man or the spirit of God as being in a sense "personal" without being a "separate person" as in many ways it is our "spirit" that is "who we are" as humans and not just biological machines or "bags of meat." There are a lot of views about whether there is a difference between the mind and the spirit but it seems it is by our spirit or by His spirit that we know anything (of a spiritual sort at least). If God works through His spirit then it is by that spirit that we know Him and experience Him. It is by our spirit that we know and discern and so forth - that doesn't make there two of us any more than it has to make two of God. And unlike us, God doesn't seem to have parts and is "only" Spirit. It is who and what He is and by and through which he does everything and interacts with everything. That is neither an "impersonal force" nor necessarily a separate person.

[dwight92070]

Hi Dwight,

No, actually they cannot. How can you obtain righteousness, peace, and joy from something other than a person?...

The apostle(s) do not say we "obtain" these from the holy Spirit, but these are in the holy Spirit. They are easily understood as coming from God himself.

Dwight - Now it is you who making a distinction without a difference. The fruit of an apple tree is apples. Apples come FROM an apple tree. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is goodness, peace, joy, etc. Goodness or righteousness, peace, and joy come FROM the Holy Spirit. Galatians 5:22 This is the APOSTLE PAUL speaking here.

Dwight - The Holy Spirit IS God Himself, as is Jesus - and yet they are distinct at the same time.

How can you grieve a non-person? How can a non-person sanctify you? How can it be that a non-person would know the difference between "Jesus is accursed" and "Jesus is Lord", since a non-person has no mind, at least not equal intelligence that even approaches that of a person? How is it possible to lie to a non-person? Acts 5:3

If Jesus and the apostles never intended us to understand the holy Spirit as a third person of the godhead, then there is no problem speaking this way

Dwight - I don't it was their intention to give us that understanding. Nor was it their intention to dissuade us from that understanding. They simply stated facts relating to the Holy Spirit. Those facts make it clear that the Holy Spirit is a person and is God.

[dizerner]

Spiritual matters are always going to be a bit of conjecture as they are only revealed to us in part it seems. But, I don't have a problem seeing the spirit of man or the spirit of God as being in a sense "personal" without being a "separate person" as in many ways it is our "spirit" that is "who we are" as humans and not just biological machines or "bags of meat." There are a lot of views about whether there is a difference between the mind and the spirit but it seems it is by our spirit or by His spirit that we know anything (of a spiritual sort at least). If God works through His spirit then it is by that spirit that we know Him and experience Him. It is by our spirit that we know and discern and so forth - that doesn't make there two of us any more than it has to make two of God. And unlike us, God doesn't seem to have parts and is "only" Spirit. It is who and what He is and by and through which he does everything and interacts with everything. That is neither an "impersonal force" nor necessarily a separate person.

Think of it this way.

You are helping someone change their tire, they say "Thanks."

Then you say, "And now I will send another helper to help you change your tire, my spirit."

There are limits to poetic speech, and we don't call our own personhood another of the same kind.

Please don't settle, even if you think you've put in so much work—ask God afresh again, for there is something you are missing.

It couldn't hurt.

[Otherness]

There is a simplicity here that can be, apparently, difficult to grasp. So...inviting discussion I'll keep it simple :

YHWH is (a) PERSONAL BEING (Exodus 3: 14) : He is (an) I AM.

YHWH (I AM) is GOD.

GOD (I AM) is SPIRIT (John 4:24).

GOD (I AM) is HOLY.

I AM is HOLY SPIRIT.

The HOLY SPIRIT is I AM.

The HOLY SPIRIT is (a) PERSONAL BEING.

[Homer]

Otherness,

Could you elaborate? Sorry for my thick head but couldn't what you wrote be applicable to the oneness belief?

[darinhouston]

Spiritual matters are always going to be a bit of conjecture as they are only revealed to us in part it seems. But, I don't have a problem seeing the spirit of man or the spirit of God as being in a sense "personal" without being a "separate person" as in many ways it is our "spirit" that is "who we are" as humans and not just biological machines or "bags of meat." There are a lot of views about whether there is a difference between the mind and the spirit but it seems it is by our spirit or by His spirit that we know anything (of a spiritual sort at least). If God works through His spirit then it is by that spirit that we know Him and experience Him. It is by our spirit that we know and discern and so forth - that doesn't make there two of us any more than it has to make two of God. And unlike us, God doesn't seem to have parts and is "only" Spirit. It is who and what He is and by and through which he does everything and interacts with everything. That is neither an "impersonal force" nor necessarily a separate person.

Think of it this way.

You are helping someone change their tire, they say "Thanks."

Then you say, "And now I will send another helper to help you change your tire, my spirit."

There are limits to poetic speech, and we don't call our own personhood another of the same kind.

Please don't settle, even if you think you've put in so much work—ask God afresh again, for there is something you are missing.

It couldn't hurt.

Just out of curiosity, how far do you carry the notion of "same kind"? A helper with two legs and two arms with the same voice and so forth?

[Otherness]

Hi Homer,

Yes, as a stand alone post this could appear to be in concert with a oneness belief. But in the context of my other posts it shouldn't be read that way. My purpose was to affirm (demonstrate) that the Holy Spirit is most certainly, in agreeing with your original post, that very Personal Being Who identifies as YHWH.

The verse that first came to mind when I read your original post is the very one that Dizerner referenced in one of his replies : “For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God” (1 Cor. 2:11 NKJ).

The spirit isn't “in (or at) the core” of a personal being, the spirit...IS...the core of a personal being. This is true of both God and man.

In the Love of God, Who is Love in Himself. Before any Creation the Father loves the Son, and the Son loves the Father.