I have never claimed that some people have become perfect or sinless.
I have said that the purpose of the death of Christ is to deliver us from sin, and that this is a life-long process.
If we come to the point when we cease being delivered, or think we do not need any further deliverance, we are in trouble—big trouble.
What IS the Grace of God?
Re: What IS the Grace of God?
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: What IS the Grace of God?
Paidion,
The quote from Alford's commentary stated that Christ, by His sacrifice, accomplished much more than the amelioration of sin.
The quote from Alford's commentary stated that Christ, by His sacrifice, accomplished much more than the amelioration of sin.
You wrote:amelioration
[əˌmēlēəˈrāSH(ə)n]
NOUN
formal
the act of making something better; improvement.
"progress brings with it the amelioration of the human condition"
synonyms:
advance · development · upgrade · change for the better · refinement · enhancement · furtherance · advancement · forwarding · boost · augmentation · raising · correction · rectification · rectifying · upgrading · rally · recovery · upswing · breakthrough
And you wrote:Yes, it accomplished much more that amelioration — improvement, betterment.
It accomplished the possibility of elimination.
But that elimination is not instantaneous; it is a life-long process.
You said the atonement accomplished the possibility of the elimination of sin and then appear to say that is not possible in anyone's lifetime. The statements appear contradictory. If no one can ever achieve perfection what is left but amelioration? Perhaps I misunderstand you. Please explain.I have never claimed that some people have become perfect or sinless.
I have said that the purpose of the death of Christ is to deliver us from sin, and that this is a life-long process.
If we come to the point when we cease being delivered, or think we do not need any further deliverance, we are in trouble—big trouble.
Re: What IS the Grace of God?
The process of elimination of sin is made available to Christians through the sacrifice of Christ. This is a life-long continual process, and I think probably never comes to the point where the Christian can say, "Now I am free from sin, never to sin again." However, that doesn't imply that the process has come to a halt. If the Christian trusts in Christ for His enabling grace to deliver him, then that deliverance becomes a reality for him throughout his life, and he will continue to be delivered.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: What IS the Grace of God?
Here is a quote from Origen, that may or may not be relevant:
This restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing of countless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right behind them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders, who were once enemies, will advance and reconcile themselves to God; and so at length the last enemy will be reached.
(Origen A.D. 184-253, De Principiis, III. vi. 6)
This restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing of countless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right behind them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders, who were once enemies, will advance and reconcile themselves to God; and so at length the last enemy will be reached.
(Origen A.D. 184-253, De Principiis, III. vi. 6)
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: What IS the Grace of God?
Paidion,
Perhaps you can clear things up if you give your view of the sacrificial system we find in Leviticus 16.
Perhaps you can clear things up if you give your view of the sacrificial system we find in Leviticus 16.
Re: What IS the Grace of God?
Actually, I don't hold to any particular "view" of that system. Truthfully, I don't pay any attention to it.
My position is that the only real deliverance from sin came through Christ's sacrificial death and resurrection,
and that this deliverance continues throughout our lives as long as we entrust ourselves to Jesus for it.
My position is that the only real deliverance from sin came through Christ's sacrificial death and resurrection,
and that this deliverance continues throughout our lives as long as we entrust ourselves to Jesus for it.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: What IS the Grace of God?
If it has nothing to do with human behaviour, as some say, then they would have to disagree with the words of Jesus:
“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” (John 5: 28, 29)
Some say that I hold a "dangerous" position. Is that the case? If not, and you believe the words of Jesus as do I, then there is nothing “dangerous” about my position. Or do some think I am advocating self-effort as the basis for our post-mortem condition? I am not!
I believe that the sacrifice of Jesus, the Anointed One, on our behalf has made available the enabling grace to live a righteous life.
The dangerous position is that one can get “saved” by accepting Jesus as Saviour, and then he is certain of everlasting life in heaven, no matter how he lives his life here on earth. The apostle Paul taught the same thing as Jesus taught about the after-life. He made it clear that living a righteous life here on earth is necessary:
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor 6:9-11 NAS95)
The Greek word translated as “justified” does not mean “counted righteous” but means “rendered righteous”. It is through Christ's enabling grace, made available through His sacrifice that we are rendered righteous, with our co-operation, of course. It is not a “positional righteousness” but an “actual righteousness”.
Did Jesus "take our place" and endure the punishment punishment from God that we deserved?.
George MacDonald wrote:
They say first, God must punish the sinner, for justice requires it; then they say he does not punish the sinner, but punishes a perfectly righteous man instead, attributes his righteousness to the sinner, and so continues just. Was there ever such a confusion, such an inversion of right and wrong! Justice could not treat a righteous man as an unrighteous; neither, if justice required the punishment of sin, could justice let the sinner go unpunished. To lay the pain upon the righteous in the name of justice is simply monstrous. No wonder unbelief is rampant. Believe in Moloch if you will, but call him Moloch, not Justice. Be sure that the thing that God gives, the righteousness that is of God, is a real thing, and not a contemptible legalism. Pray God I have no righteousness imputed to me. Let me be regarded as the sinner I am; for nothing will serve my need but to be made a righteous man, one that will no more sin. (Unspoken Sermons III, Righteousness)
So the question for me is, "Was it necessary for Jesus, the Son of God, to die?" Yes. Certainly it was necessary, or He would not have undergone death. He prayed to his Father, "O my Father, if possible, let this cup [of suffering and death] pass from me!" (Matt 26:39). And the Father didn't release His Son from suffering and death. So it seems it was not only necessary for Jesus to suffer and die, but impossible for it to be otherwise—that is, if the purpose of God were to be realized.
So clearly it was necessary for the Son of God to die. But is that the end of the story? Does that satisfy us that the answer to Jesus' prayer showed that it was necessary? But the question is, "WHY was it necessary for the Son of God to die?" Peter, Paul, and the writer to the Hebrews answer that question plainly:
Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Many cannot accept these reasons for the death of the Messiah. They make statements such as, "No one can be sinless! So this must mean that God IMPUTES righteousness to me because of Christ's death."
No. It doesn't mean that at all. It does not mean that through his death Messiah imparted to us "imputed" righteousness but rather that through his death, He made possible ACTUAL righteousness. We must coöperate with his enabling grace in order to appropriate this REAL righteousness. Further more, the attainment of this righteousness is a process. This process is known as "salvation from sin," and continues throughout our lives. The process begins when we entrust our entire being to The Anointed Jesus. And Paul wrote:
I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)
So in the day of Jesus Christ, the process will be complete for all those in whom the process has begun. This is all made possible by the enabling grace which God made available through his Son's death:
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
(Titus 2:11-15)
“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” (John 5: 28, 29)
Some say that I hold a "dangerous" position. Is that the case? If not, and you believe the words of Jesus as do I, then there is nothing “dangerous” about my position. Or do some think I am advocating self-effort as the basis for our post-mortem condition? I am not!
I believe that the sacrifice of Jesus, the Anointed One, on our behalf has made available the enabling grace to live a righteous life.
The dangerous position is that one can get “saved” by accepting Jesus as Saviour, and then he is certain of everlasting life in heaven, no matter how he lives his life here on earth. The apostle Paul taught the same thing as Jesus taught about the after-life. He made it clear that living a righteous life here on earth is necessary:
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor 6:9-11 NAS95)
The Greek word translated as “justified” does not mean “counted righteous” but means “rendered righteous”. It is through Christ's enabling grace, made available through His sacrifice that we are rendered righteous, with our co-operation, of course. It is not a “positional righteousness” but an “actual righteousness”.
Did Jesus "take our place" and endure the punishment punishment from God that we deserved?.
George MacDonald wrote:
They say first, God must punish the sinner, for justice requires it; then they say he does not punish the sinner, but punishes a perfectly righteous man instead, attributes his righteousness to the sinner, and so continues just. Was there ever such a confusion, such an inversion of right and wrong! Justice could not treat a righteous man as an unrighteous; neither, if justice required the punishment of sin, could justice let the sinner go unpunished. To lay the pain upon the righteous in the name of justice is simply monstrous. No wonder unbelief is rampant. Believe in Moloch if you will, but call him Moloch, not Justice. Be sure that the thing that God gives, the righteousness that is of God, is a real thing, and not a contemptible legalism. Pray God I have no righteousness imputed to me. Let me be regarded as the sinner I am; for nothing will serve my need but to be made a righteous man, one that will no more sin. (Unspoken Sermons III, Righteousness)
So the question for me is, "Was it necessary for Jesus, the Son of God, to die?" Yes. Certainly it was necessary, or He would not have undergone death. He prayed to his Father, "O my Father, if possible, let this cup [of suffering and death] pass from me!" (Matt 26:39). And the Father didn't release His Son from suffering and death. So it seems it was not only necessary for Jesus to suffer and die, but impossible for it to be otherwise—that is, if the purpose of God were to be realized.
So clearly it was necessary for the Son of God to die. But is that the end of the story? Does that satisfy us that the answer to Jesus' prayer showed that it was necessary? But the question is, "WHY was it necessary for the Son of God to die?" Peter, Paul, and the writer to the Hebrews answer that question plainly:
Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Many cannot accept these reasons for the death of the Messiah. They make statements such as, "No one can be sinless! So this must mean that God IMPUTES righteousness to me because of Christ's death."
No. It doesn't mean that at all. It does not mean that through his death Messiah imparted to us "imputed" righteousness but rather that through his death, He made possible ACTUAL righteousness. We must coöperate with his enabling grace in order to appropriate this REAL righteousness. Further more, the attainment of this righteousness is a process. This process is known as "salvation from sin," and continues throughout our lives. The process begins when we entrust our entire being to The Anointed Jesus. And Paul wrote:
I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)
So in the day of Jesus Christ, the process will be complete for all those in whom the process has begun. This is all made possible by the enabling grace which God made available through his Son's death:
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
(Titus 2:11-15)
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: What IS the Grace of God?
Paidion,
Your quote of MacDonald, apparently in support of your view:
Your quote of MacDonald, apparently in support of your view:
And you said:Pray God I have no righteousness imputed to me. Let me be regarded as the sinner I am; for nothing will serve my need but to be made a righteous man, one that will no more sin. Unspoken Sermons III, Righteousness)
I'm having a hard time understanding your view of the atonement. You appear to deny that your idea regarding the atonement was that it accomplished the amelioration of sin and we never become sinless. The Macdonald quote makes no sense; his desire is to be regarded as a sinner who will not sin anymore. If the atonement accomplished that wouldn't he be sinless, perfected? Sounds like perfectionists who deny sin by categorizing them as "mistakes". Perhaps you can clarify what you believe or what MacDonald taught.I have never claimed that some people have become perfect or sinless.
Re: What IS the Grace of God?
Paidion,
Your quote of MacDonald, apparently in support of your view:
Your quote of MacDonald, apparently in support of your view:
And you said:Pray God I have no righteousness imputed to me. Let me be regarded as the sinner I am; for nothing will serve my need but to be made a righteous man, one that will no more sin. Unspoken Sermons III, Righteousness)
I'm having a hard time understanding your view of the atonement. You appear to deny that your idea regarding the atonement is that it accomplishes the amelioration of sin and we never become sinless. The Macdonald quote makes no sense; his desire is to be regarded as a sinner who will not sin anymore. If the atonement accomplished that wouldn't he be sinless, perfected? Sounds like perfectionists who deny sin by categorizing them as "mistakes". Perhaps you can clarify what you believe or what MacDonald taught.I have never claimed that some people have become perfect or sinless.
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commonsense
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Re: What IS the Grace of God?
Paidion, No. I don't see any danger in your position. In fact, we are told that "No one has ever seen God. If we love one another, God remains in us and His love is perfected in us." This is as close to God and to "perfection" as we can get, at least for now. This is REAL righteousness and it's what God expects from us.
Many people might disagree with me, but I see the sacrificial system and all it's rituals as pagan cult practices that some in Israel wouldn't leave behind when they came out of Egypt. While things such as burning incense, setting out show bread, immersing yourself in water, siting around in sackcloth and ashes chanting and moaning etc.etc. aren't sinful, they aren't the righteousness that the One True God is looking for. They're basically "dead" works. Read Proverbs. That's what God is looking for. And all through the Old Testament, the prophets are telling these people to put away their sin and actually DO good. But, they wouldn't listen. And so God gave them over to the imaginations of their minds and they fell.