Abrahamic Salvation?

Man, Sin, & Salvation
commonsense
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by commonsense » Mon May 03, 2021 1:19 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:05 pm
Deut. 10:12 'What does the Lord your God require of you but to fear the Lord your God by walking in all His ways, to love Him, to serve him with all your heart and soul."
Darin, The above is how you are made right with God.

There is no doubt that many of the people in the Old Testament had the indwelling Spirit and had relationships with God, individually and collectively.
Again, you cannot produce the fruit of the Spirit otherwise.

The Lord My Shepherd, I shall not want, He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters and restores my soul.......I will fear no evil for you are with me, your rod and your staff comfort me......"

So, you're saying that David did not have a relationship with God or the indwelling Spirit?

This was the problem:
Deut. He forsook the God who made him and scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation. They sacrificed to foreign gods, to gods they did not know, to new gods, new arrivals that their fathers did not fear. Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful, and have forgotten the God who fathered you.

And as Isaiah says, " Return to Me and I will return to you."

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darinhouston
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by darinhouston » Mon May 03, 2021 3:02 pm

The problem is no one is capable of doing that and that we can never close that gap without being born again and receiving the salvation that comes from Christ's faithfulness alone available to us through our belief on him and following him as our Lord. Before I start giving you passages from the New Testament, can you tell me if you believe in the New Covenant and whether the teachings of Christ and the Apostles in the New Testament have any authority to you? I would love to know what your faith tradition is and whether you are in a particular denomination. That would help me somewhat communicate these issues within a relevant context.

commonsense
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by commonsense » Mon May 03, 2021 5:54 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 3:02 pm
The problem is no one is capable of doing that and that we can never close that gap without being born again and receiving the salvation that comes from Christ's faithfulness alone
It is not Christ's faithfulness that brings you to salvation. It's your faithfulness to God's word that does it. And yes, we are capable of it through the Spirit of God. "The fruit of the Spirit is faithfulness etc.etc."
Yes, I believe that Jesus' words are the TRUTH, and I follow Him. "Love God and love others as yourself.", the two greatest commandments.
"All the Law is fulfilled even in this."

That the Spirit of God was in the lives of these people in the Old Testament is pretty plain and clear.

"Therefore says the Lord who REDEEMED Abraham, concerning the the house of Jacob: Jacob shall not be ashamed, nor shall his face grow pale, but when he sees his children, the work of My hands, in his midst, they will hallow My the Holy One of Jacob and fear the God of Israel. These also who erred in spirit will come to understanding."

Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who PUT HIS HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN them, who led the by the right hand of Moses with His glorious arm to make for Himself an everlasting name."
darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 3:02 pm
can you tell me if you believe in the New Covenant
The New Covenant is the same covenant that was given to Abraham and his seed. That's why if we belong to Christ we are Abraham seed.

The invitation to enter God's covenant was there in the Old Testament as well.
" Ho! Everyone who thirsts come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat.....Listen diligently to me and eat what is good and let your soul delight itself in abundance. Incline your ear and come to Me. Hear and your soul shall live and I will make an everlasting covenant with you."

A covenant is an agreement between two parties. If we do not keep our part then we don't receive the promises of it. But God always remains faithful to it on His part. "Return to Me and I will return to you."
darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 3:02 pm

The problem is no one is capable of doing that
The problem is, a remnant of the Levitical law still remains in the teachings of today, the myth of penal substitution.

dwight92070
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by dwight92070 » Mon May 03, 2021 9:58 pm

Darin,

I believe commonsense already said that he is not a member of a church organization. I think he is quite confused. If the New Covenant is the same as what was given to Abraham, then I guess it wouldn't be new, would it?

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darinhouston
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by darinhouston » Mon May 03, 2021 10:03 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:58 pm
Darin,

I believe commonsense already said that he is not a member of a church organization. I think he is quite confused. If the New Covenant is the same as what was given to Abraham, then I guess it wouldn't be new, would it?
Excellent point -- I didn't catch that about the organization - there clearly seems to be a "faith tradition" influence, however, even if he's not a part of an organization.

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darinhouston
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by darinhouston » Mon May 03, 2021 10:05 pm

commonsense wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 5:54 pm
The problem is, a remnant of the Levitical law still remains in the teachings of today, the myth of penal substitution.
Well, there's a lot to unpack in what you have said, but on this one I'm pretty much with you - I'm not really an adherent to penal substitution per se. I think there's a lot going on with the atonement and all the theories fail as a categorical explanation. I think there are aspects of most, but that's a thread well worn elsewhere on here.

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darinhouston
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by darinhouston » Mon May 03, 2021 10:20 pm

commonsense wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 5:54 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 3:02 pm
The problem is no one is capable of doing that and that we can never close that gap without being born again and receiving the salvation that comes from Christ's faithfulness alone
It is not Christ's faithfulness that brings you to salvation. It's your faithfulness to God's word that does it. And yes, we are capable of it through the Spirit of God. "The fruit of the Spirit is faithfulness etc.etc."
Yes, I believe that Jesus' words are the TRUTH, and I follow Him. "Love God and love others as yourself.", the two greatest commandments.
"All the Law is fulfilled even in this."

That the Spirit of God was in the lives of these people in the Old Testament is pretty plain and clear.
I believe scripture teaches (and my experience confirms) that we can not be salvifically faithful without the saving power and grace of God through Jesus, and it was his faithfulness even to the end that made his death effective (by whatever theory) to save us from the power and end of sin. We can try, and when we try, the Father is faithful to "be there" when we seek Him. But, we will and often do fail. But for the grace of God, our efforts would fail. Part of that grace is judicial (even if not penal substitution) in that if we remain on "Jesus' team" and follow him as our Lord, then we will seek to "do right" but without the example of Jesus' life and death (even if not Christus Victor) and the changed heart that he provides His people along with the leading and conviction of the Holy Spirit, we could not do it (salvation in this life from the bondage of sin).

Yes, the Spirit guided the OT saints. It even came upon and empowered some for specific tasks, but it was not a normative experience for all followers. That is one of the main things that makes the New Covenant a "better covenant." There was never even power in the sheeps and goats - I believe that was an accommodation and it was only the later cross that closed the gap even for the "relatively righteous' Remnant in Israel (though still falling short).

What Adam, the first man, failed to do in his failing to live faithfully, Jesus did perfectly as the second man (not Abraham). This life lived faithfully and by demonstrating in his passion on the cross the ultimate act of love undid that example for all mankind. I don't understand the metaphysics of that but it is clearly taught in scripture.

You also make a common mistake with respect to covenants - covenants can be conditional - God's covenant with Abraham and Israel was conditional on them being faithful. They were not (over and over and over). He would never break the covenant, but they did (continually). Some had faith that was considered righteousness to their account, but they lacked the power of the Spirit that is now available to all believers through the cross.

commonsense
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by commonsense » Tue May 04, 2021 1:42 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:20 pm
You also make a common mistake with respect to covenants - covenants can be conditional - God's covenant with Abraham and Israel was conditional on them being faithful. They were not (over and over and over). He would never break the covenant, but they did (continually). Some had faith that was considered righteousness to their account, but they lacked the power of the Spirit that is now available to all believers through the cross.
The covenant hasn't changed. It still depends on our faithfulness in keeping it.
" Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness and receive the implanted word which is able to save your souls."
"Pursue peace with all men and holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

The power of the Spirit was available to them as well. The problem was as in the parable of the sower and the seed.
darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:20 pm

What Adam, the first man, failed to do in his failing to live faithfully, Jesus did perfectly as the second man (not Abraham).
The second man is the new man- the one who puts away his sin and is reborn in the Spirit.
"that you put off concerning your former conduct, the old man and be renewed in the spirit of your mind and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in righteousness and true holiness."
As Isaiah says "Cease to do evil, learn to do good and though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.

Yes, Abraham was faithful. "Because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments and My laws."
darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:20 pm
Yes, the Spirit guided the OT saints. It even came upon and empowered some for specific tasks, but it was not a normative experience for all followers. That is one of the main things that makes the New Covenant a "better covenant."
It was a normative experience for all followers. The New Covenant was new to those who were raised according to other beliefs( such as the Levitical law), but was not new as it had been previously given to Abraham. It is a better covenant as compared to those living under the Levitical priesthood(bondage).
darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:20 pm
I believe scripture teaches (and my experience confirms) that we can not be salvifically faithful without the saving power and grace of God through Jesus,
Through the Spirit. Again, The fruit of the Spirit is faithfulness.
darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:20 pm
, the Father is faithful to "be there" when we seek Him. But, we will and often do fail. But for the grace of God, our efforts would fail. Part of that grace is judicial (even if not penal substitution) in that if we remain on "Jesus' team" and follow him as our Lord, then we will seek to "do right" but without the example of Jesus' life and death
Isaiah: " Listen to Me, you who follow after righteousness, who seek the Lord; look to the rock from which you were hewn, Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you; for I called him alone and blessed him and increased him."

' If you extend your soul to the hungry and satisfy the afflicted soul,then your light shall dawn in the darkness and your darkness shall be as noonday. The Lord will guide you continually and satisfy your soul in drought, and strengthen your bones; you shall be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail."

God was working and changing hearts in the Old Testament as well.

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darinhouston
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by darinhouston » Tue May 04, 2021 2:12 pm

I don't mean this in any way as sarcastic as it no doubt will appear - but you might want to familiarize yourself with the entirety of the New Testament, but maybe start with Romans 7 and 8 - Paul was a super-Jew who thought much as you seem to until he experienced Christ. Maybe take a read through Hebrews as well.

Here are a few tidbits...

John 14:6
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 15:4-6
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

John 14:15-18
"If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10
And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Philippians 4:19
And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:22
And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,

2 Chronicles 20:6
and said: "O LORD God of our fathers, are You not God in heaven, and do You not rule over all the kingdoms of the nations, and in Your hand is there not power and might, so that no one is able to withstand You?

Proverbs 19:21
There are many plans in a man’s heart,
Nevertheless the LORD’s counsel—that will stand.

Romans 5:9-10
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

commonsense
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by commonsense » Tue May 04, 2021 3:53 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 2:12 pm
I don't mean this in any way as sarcastic as it no doubt will appear - but you might want to familiarize yourself with the entirety of the New Testament, but maybe start with Romans 7 and 8 - Paul was a super-Jew who thought much as you seem to until he experienced Christ. Maybe take a read through Hebrews as well.
Darin, no offense taken :) But I'm very familiar with the entirety of the New Testament as well as the Old. May I ask the same? Are you familiar with the Old Testament? I assume you would be.
darinhouston wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 2:12 pm
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.
It's not Jesus Himself being the way the truth and the life. It was the Spirit inside of Him, and the words that He spoke ( which is written in the heart)
" My words are spirit and they give life."
Psalms: 'The word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path."
" But I say walk by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."
darinhouston wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 2:12 pm

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
Abide in LOVE- Love of God and love of others as ourselves. And again Abraham was bearing the fruit of the Spirit. "I will make you fruitful."
darinhouston wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 2:12 pm
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

And did Abraham have faith? The way in which we should walk according to God was prepared beforehand ,from the very beginning. And these ways were known from the start. Enoch walked with God and was translated so that he did not see death. (Hebrews).I'd say that those who followed Enoch's example would have been translated as well.
"You should walk in all the ways that the lord your God has commanded you that you may live."(Moses)
" What does the Lord require of you but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God?"( Micah)
darinhouston wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 2:12 pm

And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
'Indeed I have given David as a witness to the people, a leader and commander for the people. "Surely you shall call a nation you do not know, and nations who do not know you shall run to you, because of the Lord your God and the Holy One of Israel ; for He has glorified you."

darinhouston wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 2:12 pm
and said: "O LORD God of our fathers, are You not God in heaven, and do You not rule over all the kingdoms of the nations, and in Your hand is there not power and might, so that no one is able to withstand You?
Again
Was there not power and might by the hand of Moses and the people who followed? Was Pharaoh able to withstand? How about David defeating
Goliath, Joshua tearing down the walls of Jericho, or Samson?
darinhouston wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 2:12 pm
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—
The wisdom of God was also given to Solomon which is written in Proverbs.

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