THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Man, Sin, & Salvation
commonsense
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by commonsense » Mon May 10, 2021 6:09 pm

steve7150 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:08 pm
Maybe i missed it but what does this quote have to do with Levitical law?
Those that came out of Egypt were baptized in the Spirit, not the Levitical law. They all ate the same spiritual food that Jesus was feeding people, the word of the Spirit which gives life. "My words are spirit and they give life." aka the fruit of the Spirit, the bread of heaven.
steve7150 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:13 pm
Paul (i think) said the 10 Commandments were death , but that doesn't mean God didn't write it. The Law of Moses was not meant for salvation or even righteousness but as a teaching tool, as i understand it.
The 10 commandments aren't death. The Levitical priesthood, their laws and their ways were death, and that's what was torn down and cast out. They were the ways of Egypt and Egyptian pagan gods that some of the people refused to leave behind.

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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by steve7150 » Thu May 13, 2021 9:15 am

Those that came out of Egypt were baptized in the Spirit, not the Levitical law. They all ate the same spiritual food that Jesus was feeding people, the word of the Spirit which gives life. "My words are spirit and they give life." aka the fruit of the Spirit, the bread of heaven.
steve7150 wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 4:13 p



OK no argument with this but i don't see that this suggests the Law of Moses was not from God?

steve7150
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by steve7150 » Thu May 13, 2021 9:21 am

The 10 commandments aren't death. The Levitical priesthood, their laws and their ways were death, and that's what was torn down and cast out. They were the ways of Egypt and Egyptian pagan gods that some of the people refused to leave behind.



It sounds like Paul said the 10 Commandments were death, "Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its glory , which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?" 2Cor 3.7-8

steve7150
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by steve7150 » Thu May 13, 2021 9:39 am

The 10 commandments aren't death. The Levitical priesthood, their laws and their ways were death, and that's what was torn down and cast out. They were the ways of Egypt and Egyptian pagan gods that some of the people refused to leave behind.
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On your point about the Levitical Law coming from pagan Egypt , do you have any scripture on this?

commonsense
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by commonsense » Mon May 17, 2021 10:49 pm

steve7150 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 9:39 am
On your point about the Levitical Law coming from pagan Egypt , do you have any scripture on this?
Steve, " these are the two covenants, the one from Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is."

Hagar came from Egypt, a land ruled by people who worshiped pagan gods. The covenant that came from Sinai represents Hagar. They're not talking about the Ten Commandments. The Ten were there even in Abraham's day. They're referring to the Levitical law.

Acts: "This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us,( the Ten Commandments) whom our fathers would not obey, but rejected. And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt."

commonsense
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by commonsense » Mon May 17, 2021 11:32 pm

Reading the Bible as a whole, I think it's important to understand what's going on. There were two different priesthoods, the priesthood of Mel and the priesthood of the Levitical law, two different ministries preaching different messages.

"All were baptized into Moses, in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ."

So, all those coming out of Egypt were baptized in the Spirit, receiving the same ministry as what Jesus and His disciples were preaching. ( The priesthood of Mel of which Jesus was appointed High priest)

Some rejected this and in their hearts they turned back to Egypt. They didn't physically return to Egypt. But they brought the ways of their pagan gods with them. Simply moving from one place to another doesn't bring you a new life. As the New Testament says,we must put off the old man in order to become the new.

commonsense
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by commonsense » Tue May 18, 2021 11:59 pm

What you have in the Bible is a conflict between two covenants and two ministries.
The Levitical law preaching :
You can never be sinless and acceptable to God- Therefore, you must sacrifice blemish free animals in order to be forgiven of sin, not to mention all the other purification rituals one must do.

The priesthood of the Spirit( That of Mel) says: "I did not speak to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of Egypt concerning burnt offering and sacrifices."
But, "Cease to do evil and learn to do good and your sins will be as white as snow."
" If you extend your soul to the hungry and satisfy the afflicted soul, then your light will dawn in the darkness and the Lord will guide you continually....."
"Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the lord and He will have mercy on him, for he will abundantly pardon."
"Return to Me and I will return to you."
What you return to is the two greatest commandments: Love God and love others as yourself of which the Ten commandments are an extension of this Law.
The only sacrifice necessary is for you to give up your sin and become a life giving spirit.
And Jesus gave His life to teach us this truth, bringing people back to the One True God- the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

"Cast out the bondwoman and her son." This means to cast it out TOTALLY. Don't bring it back via theology by putting Jesus in place of the animal.

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Paidion
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by Paidion » Thu May 20, 2021 8:27 pm

commonsense wrote:The only sacrifice necessary is for you to give up your sin...
Yepiree!
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steve7150
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by steve7150 » Sat May 22, 2021 12:55 pm

The priesthood of the Spirit( That of Mel) says: "I did not speak to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of Egypt concerning burnt offering and sacrifices."







OK fair enough but later on at Mt Sinai God did give to them the Law of Moses which included the Levitical Law and perhaps that was because so many fell away from the Spirit. I'm not defending or uplifting Levitical Law, all i mean is that God did give it probably as Paul said as a taskmaster.

commonsense
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by commonsense » Sat May 22, 2021 5:12 pm

steve7150 wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 12:55 pm
OK fair enough but later on at Mt Sinai God did give to them the Law of Moses which included the Levitical Law and perhaps that was because so many fell away from the Spirit. I'm not defending or uplifting Levitical Law, all i mean is that God did give it probably as Paul said as a taskmaster.
Steve, as Romans says, God gave them over to their foolish minds.

The Law of Moses was the Ten Commandments. And He gives an explanation of these.
Moses didn't give any inheritance to the Levitical priesthood.
And again, in the New Testament, "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman."
Here's what the TRUE prophets of God have to say:

Jeremiah: "But My people do not know the requirements of the Lord. How can you say 'We are wise and the Law of the lord is with us.', when in fact THE LYING PEN OF THE SCRIBES has produced a deception."
Isaiah: " But the word of the Lord WAS TO THEM, precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little that they might go and fall backward and be broken, snared and taken."

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