We are saved from WHAT?

[dwilkins]

Paidion in light of the above definitions of salvation why do you think Jesus had to suffer and die to save us from our sins? Why couldn't he just live a perfect life and be an example for us re what God wants from us or for us?

I'm curious about three similar questions:

1. Why did Jesus have to die?
2. What did it accomplish?
3. What is the significance of the resurrection?

Doug

[Paidion]

I'll offer what may be considered short, simple (or even simplistic) answers:

1. Why did Jesus have to die?

In order to provide enabling grace (Titus 2), and thus heal man's sin-sick soul.

2. What did it accomplish?

It provided enabling grace (Titus 2) to heal man's sin-sick soul.

3. What is the significance of the resurrection?

As Christ was raised to life, so we shall saved by His life (Romans 5:10). That process of salvation now continues (2 Corinthians 2:15) and will be brought to completion (Philippians 1:6 "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ").

[steve7150]

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

But where do you find that Christ suffered and died in our place so that we wouldn't have to suffer, but could get off scott free?
And where do you find that Christ suffered and died in order to appease the wrath of an angry God?





Thanks for your response. It is interesting that our salvation is connected at the hip with his death and resurrection but it's never precisely explained why. I have taken Isaiah 53 to be referring to Jesus dying in place of us, but perhaps i had a presupposition before i read it. I didn't take it to mean appeasing an angry God but rather some kind of moral code God has that sin must be paid for.

[jeremiah]

hello john,

But that is exactly what Paul means, Paul uses the word death in his teachings repeatedly and goes into great detail. Paul does ‘know’ we must die physically, but he sees that God has made a way to remain in the body of death and yet live, and that is by living through His Spirit in us. Remember Paul has in mind the paradox and accepts the reality of the dilemma;

this underlined portion is what i think could be a key to see what paidion and i are saying about sanctification and sin. for me, it is heavily grounded in what i understand paul to be illustrating in chapter six of romans. i have two requests if you will. would you elaborate (verse by verse if needed) on precisely what you understand paul to be illustrating with all this death and resurrection language in chapter six? especially the him seeing God to have made a way-part. this makes me think you don't see paul describing death and resurrection but maybe more like death and a corpse somehow animated by a personal spirit (spirit as you understand is what i mean)please elaborate. also, what paradox, and why do you think it's in mind in chapter six?

thanks for your gracious dialogue. peace be with you man.

[steve7150]

But where do you find that Christ suffered and died in our place so that we wouldn't have to suffer, but could get off scott free?
And where do you find that Christ suffered and died in order to appease the wrath of an angry God?







Paidion,
It says a couple of times he died as a ransom for us (price to buy us back) , but buy us back from whom? Sin or Satan or ourselves or God's wrath? Any thoughts?

[jriccitelli]

(Before Christ) Old body & Jeremiah
(Repent and Accept Jesus) = Old body & Jeremiah + Jesus
(Death) – Old body = Jeremiah & Jesus
(Resurrection) + New body = New body & Jeremiah & Jesus

And a little more detail would add;

(Before Christ) Old body & Jeremiah
(Repent and Accept Jesus) = Old body & Jeremiah + Jesus’ Spirit + Physical Church body
(Death) – Old body = Jeremiah & Jesus’ Spirit
(Resurrection) + New body = New body & Jeremiah & Jesus (Jesus in all His Glory now)
(Marriage of Lamb) + New Church body = New body & Jeremiah & Jesus & new Church body (all in one body in Glory, and one with the Father also)

I know Paidion has a different understanding of the body, but with a classical dichotomy it really seems simple to understand, I have to go so that’s all for now.

[jeremiah]

good morning john,

...but with a classical dichotomy it really seems simple to understand,...

this is why i asked you to elaborate paul's illustration of romans 6 and how it all fits together in your mind. i suspect i would reject whatever paradox you see in this passage(but i don't know, that may be hasty on my part), for which i wonder why you would say this is simple to understand, if your saying there is some dilemna and paradox, what is it? and how is something simple when a paradox is the foundation?

(Before Christ) Old body & Jeremiah
(Repent and Accept Jesus) = Old body & Jeremiah + Jesus
(Death) – Old body = Jeremiah & Jesus
(Resurrection) + New body = New body & Jeremiah & Jesus

i didn't mean death and resurrection generally, i meant how do you understand paul to be using this language illustrating how we are freed from sin now in romans 6. i would think we could agree that paul is only using jesus' resurrection and the one we have hope in as a picture for what is going on now.

grace and peace...

[jriccitelli]

I’m sorry again, it is an ‘apparent’ paradox, Paul alludes to a variety of them, but I am speaking of the dilemma and conflict of how to remain alive yet die to sin and the flesh, as Rom.7:24; Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

The death and resurrection of Christ is a reality but it is also a picture in the sense that it helps us understand (and foresee) the reality that is happening in us now (sanctification in Christ) and what will be in the future (glorification in Christ). Romans 1:18-3:19 declares that all are ‘guilty’ before God, if we acknowledge our guilt, accept that the penalty is ‘death’, and repent, then God will consider our faith in His Sacrifice and accept us.

The reality being we really must decide to die to our will (repentance), and upon that sincere decision God judges us (guilty) and yet declares us righteous, because we believed in His Son (by faith you have been saved); For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." (Rom.4:3) But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness How then was it credited? … Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; (4:5) We are the uncircumcised, meaning ‘we’ have not yet died (cut off the flesh) but ‘we have been sealed’ in Christ by the Holy Spirit, the Spiritual cutting off of the flesh done not by hands but by the Spirit. 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, (Rom.4:11)

This is how we are set me free from the body of death, yet able to remain alive, we are sealed to His Spirit which is our New life, in Him, in the Spirit, the New creation, yet not fully until we are resurrected - future.

15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. (4:15) Upon salvation from the law of death and the wrath of God, we in a sense Passover death leaving ‘our’ will behind (and soon we will leave our body behind also, as in the desert), we then follow Joshua and enter the promised land.
Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; (4:19) We also ‘consider’ the body as dead (6:11) just as Abraham ‘considered’ his body as dead, as also Sarah too, and unable to perform, yet Abraham trusted in God to perform the promises; Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead' (4:23)

How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, (6:2-4)
Baptism externally symbolizes the spiritual reality that takes place internally. Our Spirit experiences death, that is separation from the flesh and we are sealed to his Spirit which when combined with His Spirit we become a new man in Christ, our Lord and our Life. … so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with [Him] in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [in the likeness] of His resurrection, (6:3-5) (Here is the ‘now’ you may be looking for) Now we are now spiritually freed from sin, but physically it is still a battle of the old nature with the new nature. The process and the result is called sanctification. We walk in newness ‘because’ we ‘have’ been raised. Paul reminds us of the ‘if’, if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, death of self must precede our resurrection;

… knowing this, that our old self was crucified with [Him], in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. (6:6-7)

‘Knowing this’. It seems easy to understand now that Paul explained it. We shall never die either Paul says, so certainly Paul is speaking of the spirit and the unity we have with the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. (6:8-11)
Now having explained all this Paul can now explain what we need to do with our old body. Even though our old body is passing away we must still live in it (even though it would be nice to just go home now).
So Paul explains we must let Jesus live through us, and put to death the deeds of the body, not trying to ‘heal’ the body but putting it to death, as Paul said I die daily; meaning the body of flesh. The body is our temple, but it is only an earthly temple, a temporary temple and we should not grow attached to it any more than the home we live in because it is passing away. My wife and I fixed up our home and keep it clean for the purpose of fellowship and church family visiting, but our real home is in heaven in Christ.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin [as] instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. (6:12-14)

I cannot be overly concerned about the upkeep of my earthly tent, or thinking how I am going to heal it, I instead 'focus' on His Body my true home. Our freewill has not been removed so it is still a mental decision and battle over the use and upkeep of our home here – our body – it is a losing battle for our body will soon pass away;
For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (6:21-23)

If for now I can only be a good and faithful servant in Gods house, my reward is in heaven and I can only derive benefit from seeking the things above, that is; His will not mine. Am I right or wrong?

[Paidion]

Paidion,
It says a couple of times he died as a ransom for us (price to buy us back) , but buy us back from whom? Sin or Satan or ourselves or God's wrath? Any thoughts?

Yes, it's a common idea that a ransom is a price paid to buy someone back. For example, in our day, when a child is kidnapped, the kidnappers may insist on a ransom being paid before they will release the child to its parents. But is that what is meant by the Greek words "λυτρον" (lutron) and "αντιλυτρον" (antilutron)? There is no instance in the New Testament where either word is used for buying back a slave or anyone else.
Similarly with the verbal form "λυτροω" (lutroō). Lexicons tell us that "λυτρον" (lutron) is derived from "λυω" (luō) which means "I loose". With this in mind, I suggest that the word "λυτρον" (lutron) may mean "liberation" and the verbal form "λυτροω" (lutroō), often translated as "redeem" may mean "liberate." Doubtless we WERE in fact liberated from Satan, but no one paid a price to Satan. He didn't own us (though he may have think he owns people who do evil. But he is self-deceived. So great was his arrogance and self-exaltation that he imagined he owned the kingdoms of the world, too, when he tempted Jesus.)

Even today, we use "redeem" and "redemption" is the sense of fixing up or repairing or restoring. A shoemaker might say to a customer, "I'm afraid your shoes are beyond redemption," meaning that they are so worn, they cannot be repaired. So the word "λυτρον" could also mean "a means of restoration."

There are only two instances of the word "λυτρον" in the entire New Testament.

Matthew 20:28 ...even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a λυτρον for many.
Mark 10:45 For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a λυτρον for many."

Now I know that many interpret this as meaning that Jesus died to "redeem us" or "buy us back" from Satan or God or someone. However, the first thing to realize is that "giving his life" does not refer to His giving his life by dying, but to His giving his life while living, that is, He gave his whole life to serve others. This understanding is not supposition, but can be gained by reading the Matthew passage in context:

20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came up to him, with her sons, and kneeling before him she asked him for something.
21 And he said to her, "What do you want?" She said to him, "Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom."
22 But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?" They said to him, "We are able."
23 He said to them, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father."
24 And when the ten heard it, they were indignant at the two brothers.
25 But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.
26 It shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave;
28 even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a λυτρον for many."

Jesus didn't come to exalt himself, and be served like an earthly king. Rather he served others. He went around healing the sick, casting out demons, etc. He gave his whole life to serve others. So I suggest translating verse 28 as "even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a means of restoration in place of many." (or possibly "a means of liberation in place of many.")

Further evidence of this is found in Luke 4:18, where our Lord quoted the following passage as applying to himself and his work here on earth:
"The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed."

But then what is meant by "in place of many"? (the preposition is "αντι"). Matthew 20:28 and Mark 10:45 are the only places in the New Testament in which I have found any reference to Christ being a substitute. Not his "substitutionary death" but in these passages his "substitutionary life". By serving others, he substituted his own life for theirs. He lived their lives vicariously by using his own life to serve them.

I'll stop at this point lest this post becomes to long. I may have more to say in a later post.

[steve7150]

But then what is meant by "in place of many"? (the preposition is "αντι"). Matthew 20:28 and Mark 10:45 are the only places in the New Testament in which I have found any reference to Christ being a substitute. Not his "substitutionary death" but in these passages his "substitutionary life". By serving others, he substituted his own life for theirs. He lived their lives vicariously by using his own life to serve them.

I'll stop at this point lest this post becomes to long. I may have more to say in a later post.









Thanks for your response, really interesting post.