We are saved from WHAT?

[jriccitelli]

Ransom, pardon, redeemed, etc. no matter what your theological interpretation of redemption, salvation, justification, ransom, atonement, pardon, forgiveness, etc. they all work together are all tied to mean ‘something’ and all tied to the fact that we were dead in trespasses and sins, without hope.

I'll stop at this point lest this post becomes to long

You did stop a little early, I was wondering when you get to the part where we are saved from death?
We can all live wonderful lives, most all religions encourage us to live holly lives, but only the Bible reminds us we will die in our sins. Adam died because he sinned. That was the penalty, I suppose you have an answer to how that penalty is removed, but scripture says that without the shedding of blood no sin will be forgiven. You can read all about Jesus healing's and commands but we must answer the question Lord who then can be saved? This is a question of all religions, what does God require?

You quoted from Isaiah 61, but you are not skipping the rest of the Law and Prophets (including Isaiah 1-50, that’s fifty chapters of wrath and death, don’t you think this is what they should be concerned with) are you?
The scriptures have Israel condemned for sins over and over, the Prophets have all warned of a coming Judgment on Israel (and all mankind) death destruction on all sinners, Gods own people failed miserably at being good. Promises are made of forgiveness of sins through sacrifices, then in Isaiah 53 it says;

But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being [fell] upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke [was due]? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. 10But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting [Him] to grief; If He would render Himself [as] a guilt offering, He will see [His] offspring, He will prolong [His] days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand... Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

The verse in chapter 61 is not ignoring the chapters before and after, why is his apparel red?
The blood on his garments is not from the cross, it is from the ‘day of vengeance’ mentioned over and over in scripture and the vengeance is also mentioned in your Isaiah 61 verse about the good news and salvation;

To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn, (Isa.61:2) It is the ‘other part’ of the Gospel.

Who is this who comes from Edom, With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah, This One who is majestic in His apparel, Marching in the greatness of His strength? "It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save." 2 Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press? 3 "I have trodden the wine trough alone, And from the peoples there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger And trampled them in My wrath; And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, And I stained all My raiment. 4 "For the day of vengeance was in My heart, And My year of redemption has come. 5 "I looked, and there was no one to help, And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; So My own arm brought salvation to Me, And My wrath upheld Me. 6 "I trod down the peoples in My anger And made them drunk in My wrath, And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth." (Isaiah 63)

You do accept the ‘principle’ that we must die first, as in baptism, right?
Do you believe we are sinners, and that we must repent, and that we must be born again, right?

[Paidion]

You did stop a little early, I was wondering when you get to the part where we are saved from death?

I wasn't going to get to that part since it is not a dominant theme of scripture. Indeed, I found ony two verses in the entire New Testament which speak of being saved from death. The first is found in Hebrews 5:7 which speaks of Christ offering up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to the One who was able to save Him from death. But I don't think that one applies to that for which you are looking.

Here is the other from James 5:19,20

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

I'm not sure that is what you're looking for either, since it requires the wandererer "to turn back to the truth (reality)", and to turn from the error of his way(sin). And that is exactly how I understand salvation. One must repent (have change of heart and mind) and turn from sin to the reality of Christ. Then through God's enabling grace made possible by the death and resurrection of Christ, he begins to walk on the narrow path, and continues being saved from sin and saved to a life of righteousness. The consequence of all this is being saved from hell (also known as "the second death").

The reason that hell is "death" is not that it annihilates the sinner, but that the sinner is dead to God. Only God can reach him to bring him to life in relationship with Himself.

[steve7150]

One must repent (have change of heart and mind) and turn from sin to the reality of Christ. Then through God's enabling grace made possible by the death and resurrection of Christ, he begins to walk on the narrow path, and continues being saved from sin and saved to a life of righteousness. The consequence of all this is being saved from hell (also known as "the second death").








Like the Prodical son who was dead?

[Paidion]

Like the Prodical son who was dead?

I think that story is a pretty good illustration of being dead to God. The prodigal son was dead to his father in that he was separated from his father. When a person ("soul") is separated from the heavenly Father in "the Lake of Fire", he is dead to Him. As I see it, that is why "the Lake of Fire" is called "the Second Death." Just as the prodigal repented and returned to his father, so those in "the Lake of Fire") need to repent and return to the heavenly Father. It is my belief that all of them will—sooner or later. "... every tongue shall confess that Lord Jesus Christ [is]."(Philippians 2:11). In putting "Lord" before "Jesus Christ", Paul seems to be saying that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is his Lord. Such a confession cannot be forced, but must be voluntary.

[steve7150]

When a person ("soul") is separated from the heavenly Father in "the Lake of Fire", he is dead to Him. As I see it, that is why "the Lake of Fire" is called "the Second Death."









Another interesting thought from you Paidion. It has occurred to me if Conditional Immortality is true it seems odd to raise the unsaved dead only to annihilate them after they had already been physically dead. There are two different kinds of death in scripture and your idea about the second death simply never occurred to me.

[Paidion]

It has occurred to me if Conditional Immortality is true it seems odd to raise the unsaved dead only to annihilate them after they had already been physically dead.

I've wondered about raising the unsaved dead only to annihilate them, too. The only answer that I can think of, is that they believe that sin must always be punished in a penal sense, so that the unsaved dead must be punished for their sins prior to annihilation. It seems to me a bit like what happens on the earth. So great is some people's hate for an evildoer that capital punishment is insufficient. Often they insist on torturing him first before they kill him.

[Paidion]

Oh yes, there's another good reason for raising the sinner. In the interests of justice, the offender should be made to see how much he has hurt his victim(s) or other people even if they are not victims. So he is raised and that is made clear to him. Perhaps he will then want to express his regrets to the people who have been hurt by him. Then he could be annihilated without actually causing him sensory pain.

[jeremiah]

hello john,
thanks for the lengthy response, that's more of the volume I was hoping for. I'm sorry I haven't had the time to get back to it yet, I expect to have a little early this week.

hi paidion,
yeah man, I'm glad respectful is how it comes out, that's my aim.thanks for the encouragement.

grace and peace to y'all.

[jeremiah]

good morning john,

i promise i'll get back to our other conversation, but this statement you made intrigued me.

...Adam died because he sinned. That was the penalty...

do you believe God created adam and eve mortals or immortals? and do you understand paul to be speaking of the fact of "natural death" or "the death:the condemnation charged to adam the day he sinned" in romans 5?

grace and peace to you brother

[jriccitelli]

They were not immortal, as Only God is immortal. They were given the opportunity to eat of the tree of life and live, but choose to eat of the other tree also (They unwittingly choose death). As only God can sustain life, even the immortal would still depend on Gods providence, we must eat of ‘The tree’ to stay alive.
Anyways, Just as Jesus said "whoever eats this bread will never die", we know He was not speaking of earthly death, but Jesus was speaking of the eventual finality of death (our real concern).
Adam did not die right away either, the condemnation charged to Adam was death, we are as dead now and we will be dead post-mortem, even at The Judgment scripture notes the unsaved are still ‘dead’.

Romans 4 first expresses the need for Faith, believing the promise, and believing in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, see 4:24 (Happy Easter). Having been justified by Faith (Rom 5) by His blood we shall be saved from the wrath of God (5:9)

Our death here releases us from this body, then we go on but we are still dead. So the death of the body does not mean an end of existence, this is the first death. It is our spirit that continues and this is what we will be at the judgment, dead. And it is our spirit that will either be raised with Him because we accept His death for ours, or be sent by Him to the LOF, which is the second death.

Saved from what? Saved from the second death (John 3:16-21)

God bless you brothers and have a Good Friday.