We are saved from WHAT?

[Paidion]

Romans 4 first expresses the need for Faith, believing the promise, and believing in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, see 4:24 (Happy Easter). Having been justified by Faith (Rom 5) by His blood we shall be saved from the wrath of God (5:9)

Saved from what? Saved from the second death (John 3:16-21)

So by clinging to these texts and ignoring the ones which state that Christ died to save us from our sinful natures, do you have total assurance that by "accepting Christ as your substitute" you will saved from annihilation no matter how you choose to live? That your deeds have no relevance to your salvation? If so, you have yet to explain the following passage, which states that we will be judged according to our works and that eternal life will be given to those who persevere in righteousness and seek for honour and immortality from God:

Romans 2:6-10

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, but glory and honour and well-being for
every one who does good... for God shows no partiality.

[jriccitelli]

Simply stated;
A dog doesn’t bark in order to prove he is a dog, he barks because he is a dog.

[jeremiah]

A dog doesn’t bark in order to prove he is a dog, he barks because he is a dog.

playfully, would that be the work of the dog's flesh, or the the work of his spirit??

blessings in all

[jeremiah]

but seriously, I think the point is that the dog does indeed bark. thereby proving he is a dog. unless I presume too much about paidion's position, nobody is saying that our intentions are to prove anything to onlookers. but rather to be proved by the grace of Christ in us thereby being found faithful servants. I don't understand why this is being missed.

grace and peace...

[Paidion]

This point is being missed because those who believe they are saved from hell or annihilation by "faith alone" or "accepting Christ as their personal Saviour" or "by trusting in the finished works of Christ" or some other such formula, and that this salvation from hell or annihilation is unrelated to anything we do, can see only one alternative to their position, and that alternative is salvation by works.

A dog doesn’t bark in order to prove he is a dog, he barks because he is a dog.

I have no problem with this statement. I question only the means by which some think a trained dog comes into being. Does the trained dog come about by submitting to its master's will, or does it come about because a very good dog has been trained instead.

[dseusy]

Paidion,

You asked, "And where do you find that Christ suffered and died in order to appease the wrath of an angry God?"

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness" Romans 1:18

"But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God" Romans 2:5

"Is God unjust who inflicts wrath?" Romans 3:5b

"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." Ephesians 5:6

"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" 1 Thessalonians 5:9

Paidion, if you expect to spend eternity with a holy, perfectly righteous God, please be sobered and pierced by God's law...

"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does." James 1:22-25

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matthew 5:18

"And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail." Luke 16:17

"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10

[jriccitelli]

would that be the work of the dog's flesh, or the the work of his spirit?

I can’t believe I sat and thought about this for 5 minutes . I heard the analogy many times, It usually goes; a dog barks because he is a dog, not to become a dog. Before I move on from the dog analogy I might note, as having owned a number of dogs, some well trained (and others who refuse) barking is one thing a dog will do no matter how damn hard you try and get him to stop. The electric collar is about the only solution, this side of completely breaking the dogs spirit and making him useless, as ‘to bark’ is the second most important use for a dog.

Dseusy said it, the law condemns us all, our works never undo sins, and we will continue to sin (as scripture relates; all have sinned, from Adam to Malachi).
It’s unfortunate we can sin so much and still be saved, that is why it took a ‘much’ greater sacrifice because we were ‘so’ hopeless and stubborn.
There are two kinds of motivation for performance; 1. God’s blessing and chastisement – or, 2. God’s love.
Love would be the mature motivation, but as Adam fell, we all are prone to forget God and follow the flesh. God knowing this; first proved it with Israel, as an example for us, and so there would be no question about it; the Cross sealed Mankinds rebellious sinful nature, and in the same act, the Cross became our motivation.
The Cross displayed publicly God’s love, and affirms Gods promise to Abraham.
(If God had not provided the Ram there would be no Israel, no offspring for Abraham, and no Church)

Throughout scripture the only positive thing man has done – is when they believed God – note all the good works in the scriptures are done by who?
God. God did all thier good works; "LORD, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all our works" (Isa 26:12) “Remember His wonderful deeds which He has done, His marvels and the judgments from His mouth”
After reading the whole Old Testament we realize our works account for nothing but wrath, but His works account for nothing but praise and thanksgiving.

God was hoping His Love was enough to motivate us, but we are so prone to sin we continually forsake God. That is why the Cross is His message to us – One glaring work of His Love – One glaring work of our sinful nature – all in one act. The choice, circumcise your flesh, die to yourself as Christ died for you, and be raised a new person with Christ, who has been born by the Spirit of God, you must be born again.

Paidion, I do not know where you are getting this 'enabling grace' thing from, but in the Bible the Only thing Holy and enabling is His Spirit; Not by might, but by My Spirit says The Lord.

If you expect to spend eternity with a holy, perfectly righteous God, please be sobered and pierced by God's law...

[jeremiah]

good morning dseusy,

would you explain what you think those first 6 passages and their contexts are teaching?

nowhere in this thread has it been denied that wrath is the reward of the unrepentant. what we are attempting to flush out is how the gospel does not only proclaim salvation from the end of that death, however one understands final punishment, but that the gospel proclaims salvation from the death then by saving us from the death now. from faith to faith, from glory to glory, and if I may be so bold, from safety to safety.

how is this accomplished? by trust in our own strength, or by living up to a carnal set of rules? not all at all! but it is accessed by repentance from dead works and then being buried with Christ in baptism, and being raised by God to walk in the newness of life. what did paul illustrate in romans 6? a person who is resurrected, after having died and been buried, not a corpse that God somehow keeps alive by a personal spirit. but rather an entirely new creation that is manifestly alive in that God sees them breathing, which breath he gave. only after this resurrection from the grave of sin can we begin to reckon ourselves dead indeed unto sin, and alive unto God. it is from this newness of life, or newly given life, that we begin to walk the narrow path in and by his same holy spirit that first quickened us.

with this new life, just as adam and eve before they sinned, we now have communion with God. what we are saying is, this communion with the Lord of all is our salvation from sin now, and yes ultimately, the consequence of being in Christ will be salvation from hell.

i think what happens here is the conversation's scope gets mistaken from the start. in my mind,this isn't a matter of one side getting the cart before the horse and the other riding smoothly along the way, and accusations of vice versa. i think those who would imagine this thread to be defending "works righteousness" are rather standing at the end of the way, gazing back at the horse, cart and rider. in doing this, the way of peace gets mistakenly described wholly backwards resulting in the spirit of Christ being some sort of IV drip or medication for a sick man. but i see the apostles telling us if any one be in Christ, he is a new creation, the old has passed and the new has come. Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the life. i am crucified with Christ, nevertheless i live, yet not i but Christ lives in me. and the life which i now live in the flesh, i live by the faith of the son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. and i do not frustrate the grace of God, but am taught by it, from faith to faith, strength to strength, and glory to glory. it seems clear to me, that the illustrations paul gives in romans 6 and galations 2:20 are radically the same, though he is not making exactly the same point in both.

grace and peace to y'all

[Paidion]

Paidion,
You asked, "And where do you find that Christ suffered and died in order to appease the wrath of an angry God?" [Plus 10 scriptural quotes]

Dseusy, you have not yet presented a single quote which states that Christ suffered and died in order to appease the wrath of an angry God. I think the reason you haven't is because there is none.

[jriccitelli]

You can’t find a verse that says we’ve been healed of sin sickness either. You can't string a group of words together and say 'see this exact string of words is not in the bible, therefore it isn’t true'.
The principle of sins, justification, atonement, priests, wrath and death have been written about exhaustively – the soul that sins shall die.
The penalty was stated on page 2 of the Bible, God destroys the whole earth on page 4, all the prophets and people and humans since day one until now are dead or dying, and you say death is not what we need salvation from? You believe salvation means to be 'sanctified' (you are confusing salvation with sanctification, and downplaying justification).
I believe salvation means ‘both’, but reconciliation must happen ‘first’, an offering for sin must be made ‘first’.
No one approaches God; we are separated from God because of sins, ‘forever’. Their must be a mediator, and a sacrifice – FIRST – if you were unclean and without blood, the priest can be expected to be pulled out dead by the rope around his leg. You cannot sanctify a dead man; you must first be born again. And only then are you ready to be sanctified.