Old Account or Present Status?

[Paidion]

When we understand the true character of God, that He is LOVE personified, that He cares for His children, and is not the cause of cancer and agonizing death, that He will do His best for even the wicked, and that He will correct people like a loving father corrects his children --- when we understand all this, we can love Him, submit to Him, and serve Him wholeheartedly without reservation. On the other hand, if we believe the Father to be a harsh, demanding God, who keeps a record of every sin ever committed, and is ready to pounce on the slightest infraction of His law, ready to send over 99% of people to a hell where they will suffer agony eternally, we may not be able to love Him and serve Him with all of our hearts. This latter belief fits with all the pagan religions from thousands of years ago until the present. They all try to appease the anger of their gods with sacrifices and offerings, so that their gods will not harm them. Some Christians also believe that the anger our God must also be appeased, and that this was accomplished by the sacrifice of Christ. But the New Testament gives very different reasons as to why Christ died:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Each of these reasons is essentially the same. Jesus died in order that we might come under His authority and thereby, through His enabling grace, become righteous persons. God, who wants people to be reconciled to Himself and gave His Son to make this possible. The reconciliation of the individual entails taking on the characteristics of God: righteousness, holiness, love, and compassion. Christ began His work by His own proclamation of the gospel of the Kingdom. He accomplished on the cross the means of making righteousness possible, and proclaimed from the cross that this aspect of His work was completed. Through His people, He continues His work in the hearts of people, reconciling them to Himself, enabling them to overcome wrongdoing, and giving to them the ministry of reconciliation. Christ’s total work will not be complete until He has eliminated sin from the universe!

A hymn that appears in some of the old hymn books from the early 20th century, contains these words in the first two verses:

-----1. There was a time on earth, when in the Book of Heaven an old account was standing for sins yet unforgiven; my name was at the top, and many things below. I went unto the keeper and settled long ago.
-----2. The old account was large and growing every day, for I was always sinning and never tried to pay. But when I looked ahead and saw such pain and woe, I went unto the keeper and settled long ago.

This song seem to teach that God keeps a record of all sins, and that for any individual, they pile up, that God has some kind of legal obligation to see that these sins are paid for in order that the pages of the Book of Heaven can be wiped clean. In the chorus, the song writer indicates that he was able to settle the account of his sin long ago through Jesus who washed his sins away. The idea seems to be that God keeps an account of every sin committed, and that this sin must be paid for either through Christ’s atoning work, or the sinner has to pay for it himself in an eternal hell.

But is this the teaching of Scripture? Does it anywhere teach that there is a Book of Heaven in which a record is kept of all sins?

According to the NIV, 1 Corinthians 13:4 states that Love keeps no record of wrongs.
The Philips translation puts it similarly. Love does not keep account of evil. I assure you that these two translations correctly translate the Greek words. Now John the elder affirmed twice in 1John that God is love. Does it not follow that if God is love and Love keeps no record of wrongs, then God keeps no record of wrongs, and thus does not possess a Book of Heaven in which He keeps an account of evil, an account of all sins?

Is God interested in making people pay for their past sins? Or is God interested in our present character, of any sinful tendencies in us now? Is God interested in settling the old account written in the Book of Heaven, or is He interested in conforming our present natures to the image of Christ?

I know of no one who put it more clearly than George MacDonald in his book The Hope of the Gospel in the first chapter Salvation from Sin. He wrote:

Not for anything he has committed is a man threatened with outer darkness. Not for any or all of his sins that are past shall a man be condemned; not for the worst of them does he need to dread remaining unforgiven. The sin in which he dwells, the sin of which he will not come out is the sole ruin of a man. His present live sins --- those sins pervading his thoughts and ruling his conduct; the sins he keeps doing, and will not give up; the sins he is called to abandon, but which he clings to instead, the same sins which are the cause of his misery, though he may not know it --- these are the sins for which he is even now condemned. It is the indwelling badness, ready to produce bad actions, from which we need to be delivered. If a man will not strive against this badness, he is left to commit evil and reap the consequences. To be saved from these consequences, would be no deliverance; it would be an immediate, ever deepening damnation. It is the evil in our being (no essential part of it, thank God!) ---this is what He came to deliver us from --- not the things we have done, but the possibility of doing such things any more…. The bad that lives in us, our evil judgments, our unrighteous desires, our hate and our pride and envy and greed and self-satisfaction ---- these are the souls of our sins, our live sins, more terrible than the bodies or our sins, namely the deeds we do, inasmuch as they not only produce these loathsome things, but make us as loathsome as they. Our wrong deeds are our dead works; our evil thoughts are our live sins…. The sins that dwell and work in us, are the sins from which Jesus came to deliver us. When we turn against them and refuse to obey them, they rise in fierce insistence, but the same moment begin to die. We are then on the Lord’s side, as he has always been on ours, and He begins to deliver us from them.

So the purpose of Christ’ death is not to forgive us of our past sins, but to deliver us from our present live sins, to change our very natures and desires. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

But some make the following objection: when we read Paul’s message to the Jews at Antioch concerning Jesus having been put to death and having been raised to life, we come across this sentence in the RSV:

Acts 13:38 Let it be known to you therefore, brethren, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you…

If this is what this sentence says, then it seems to directly contradicts what I have just said. But did Paul proclaim the forgiveness of sins? There are nine verses in the RSV New Testament containing the phrase “forgiveness of sins”, but before I discuss this phrase, let’s look at one more such sentence from the RSV:

Mark 1:4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

When we examine the rest of Mark’s account of John the baptizer, we find that John is not recorded as having said a word about forgiveness. Nor do you find John the baptizer mentioning forgiveness in reading the longer account of his words in Matthew. John's message was "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand". He baptized repentant people and showed them in practical ways how to "bear fruit in keeping with repentance."

The problem seems to lie in the meaning of the Greek noun “ἀφεσις” being translated as “forgiveness”. The verbal form is “ἀφιημι” which sometimes means “forgive”. But the latter word is translated as “leave” more often than it is translated in any other way. This seems to be its primary meaning. For example, all major translations translate the word as “left” in the following verses:

Matthew 8:15 … the fever left her.
Matthew 13:36 He left(“ἀφιημι” ) the crowds and went into the house.
Peter said to Jesus in Matthew 19:27 “We have left(“ἀφιημι” ) everything and followed you.”

Many of the major translations render I Corinthians 7:13 as:
If a man has an unbelieving wife and she consents to live with him, let her not leave (“ἀφιημι” ) him.

Strangely enough to say, some of these same translations translate the previous verse as
If any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce (“ἀφιημι” ) her.

Why they should translate the same verb “ἀφιημι” as “divorce” in the case of a brother with an unbelieving wife, I cannot guess. However, Philips, ASV, and Darby translate it consistently, that is that the brother “should not leave her.”

So what is the upshot of all this? It is simply this: if the primary meaning of “ἀφιημι” is “leave”, then the primary meaning of “ἀφεσις” is “leaving”. John the baptizer proclaimed a baptism of repentance for the leaving of sin, or perhaps better yet, for the forsaking of sin. So Paul really said (as recorded in Acts 13:38):

Let it be known to you therefore, brethren, that through this man the forsaking of sins is proclaimed to you.

Yet there is another possibility:

Jesus read in the synagogue the following passage from Isaiah:


"THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE (ἀφεσις) TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE [to send away in freedom (ἀφεσις)] THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." Luke 4:18. 19 NASB

No one translates “ἀφεσις” in this passage as “forgiveness”. If they did we would have Jesus sending away in forgiveness, those who are oppressed. The oppressed do not need forgiveness. They need freedom from oppression.

If we transfer this meaning of “ἀφεσις” to the previously quoted passages, we have John the baptizer preaching a baptism of repentance for freedom from sins, and we have Paul saying to the Jewish leaders:

Acts 13:38 Let it be known to you therefore, brethren, that through this man freedom from sins is proclaimed to you.

There are other passages that may appear to say that we need to settle accounts concerning past sins, and they can be discussed. But for now, I’ll simply sum up.

God wants righteous people who will now work righteousness and avoid wrongdoing. He wants to regenerate people, give them a new heart and new desires, bring them to a state in which old things have passed away and all things become new. He may have overlooked sin in the past, but now delivers people from it through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30

[TK]

Paidion-

If you haven't read "The Shack" yet by william young, i think you would really enjoy it, particularly the way God is personified in the book. it even toys with open theism- but only in a roundabout way.

TK

[Paidion]

I know nothing about "The Shack". Does it have some relationship to my introductory post in this thread?

[TK]

"The Shack" is a popular recent work of christian fiction. the way God is portrayed in the book reminds me of the way you describe God here. I thought a lot of you while I was listening to the book on CD.

TK

[selah]

Why does it take a novel, moreover "The Shack," to get the message of love across?

Thanks Paidion, for that comprehensive study. The Scriptures tell the story of His love. Further, accurate translation and contextual understanding help us lay down fabricated misunderstandings and pick up truth.

I don't like giving "The Shack" credit for the message of God's love. You probably don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about The Shack" so I'll save my reasons for another thread.

I find Paidion's Bible study fascinating, and I agree with the scriptures you use and with this part of the quote below.

It is the indwelling badness, ready to produce bad actions, from which we need to be delivered...It is the evil in our being...this is what He came to deliver us from --- not the things we have done, but the possibility of doing such things any more…. The bad that lives in us, our evil judgments, our unrighteous desires, our hate and our pride and envy and greed and self-satisfaction…. The sins that dwell and work in us, are the sins from which Jesus came to deliver us...

But some make the following objection: when we read Paul’s message to the Jews at Antioch concerning Jesus having been put to death and having been raised to life, we come across this sentence in the RSV:

Acts 13:38 Let it be known to you therefore, brethren, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you…

Why can't we conclude from Acts 13:38 that Jesus died for both forgiveness of sin and for "the bad that lives in us>" Acts 13:38 would indicate his forgiveness of sin, and your listed scriptures as well as John 17:19 show us the sanctifcation process. Why not both?

Thanks,
SueAnn*

[darinhouston]

I don't like giving "The Shack" credit for the message of God's love. You probably don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about The Shack" so I'll save my reasons for another thread.

I haven't read The Shack, and do share in the basic sentiment of what you say, but how is it different than saying you don't want to give credit to, say, Billy Graham for the message of God's love? I think in some respects God's love is communicated by many venues, all of which are good if true to God's Word.

[selah]

Hi darinhouston,

When you mention Billy Graham as the venue, I see what you mean.

I guess my prejudice about "The Shack" was the motivation behind that statement. (Perhaps there is another thread where I can discuss my thoughts about The Shack, gain other people's insight and come to terms about my chagrin towards it. I'll keep looking.) Thanks for showing me my prejudice. See? I just got here and already stuck my foot in my mouth.

Anyway, you are right. I agree that anyone speaking about the love of God is agreeable on that point because God is love.

The main point that I was hoping to ask about is my thinking that Jesus died to save us from our sins and also to transform us by the renewing of our minds. Maybe I misunderstood Paidain but from my read of his study, it looks like he is saying it has to be one or the other.

The message of God's love as he explained it is beautiful and I believe Biblical. I was just surprised to consider that Jesus may not have also died to pay for our sins. I appreciate Paidain pointing out that the wording in old hymns may influence our understanding. In fact, I have spent many hours weeding through old influences that lead to wrong thoughts. For example, I've sung songs with the lyrics in mind, thinking, "where in the Bible does it say this?"

Okay, I saw these questions that Paidain asked so I'll give my answers and see what you or others think.

Is God interested in making people pay for their past sins?

No, because Jesus already paid for them on the cross. Jesus said in Matthew 26:28, "...My blood...which is shed for the remission (forgiveness) of sins."

Or is God interested in our present character, of any sinful tendencies in us now?

Yes, Paul tells us in Romans 5:1-3 that we have been justified (Is this the same as being forgiven? I think so but am not sure. ) and He is also interested in us "produc(ing) perseverance...and character..." in us.

Is God interested in settling the old account written in the Book of Heaven, or is He interested in conforming our present natures to the image of Christ?

I believe both. He settled our sin/forgiveness issue by dying for us and now, "there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." So, it seems to me that Jesus died for two reasons. To save us from our sins, this meaning our evil behaviors and also our "old man" character. The ongoing work of His salvation for the believer is in "working out our salvation" through sanctification, "...transform(ing) into the same image (His glorious image that we behold)..." II Cor. 3:18

What do you think? I look forward to hearing what you think too.
SueAnn*

[Paidion]

The way I see it:
When we become disciples of Christ (leave all to follow Him), walking on the narrow path that leads to life, God is not going to hold our past sins against us. Thus we are forgiven. It didn't take Christ's death to "pay" for them. God's forgiveness is one of the consequences of being a disciple of Christ. The scriptures don't give "forgiveness" as the reason Christ died (though we read it this way in most translations. See my original post on the meaning of the Greek word). According to the following passages He died to enable us to overcome sin and live to righteousness. He died to save (deliver) us from sin.

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

[selah]

Paidion, It is nice to "meet" you, brother, and good to hear from you this morning.

Some of your statements challenge my understanding of scripture but as you said, it could be because translations are misleading. What Bible/s would you recommend have the best translation? I read the NKJV almost all of the time. Is that a good one? I have not done an original word study on the word "forgiveness" or many other words that have a similar meaning, but I sure want to.

One of my goals for coming to this forum is to ask questions and learn. Of course I am entering with my own pre-conceived ideas on certain matters so this does shape my questions. I went back to your prior post and re-read your study of the words "leave" and "forgiveness."

I think we can begin with agreement that we both understand God is love, that He wants to lead us away from sinful actions and thoughts, and into His character.

When we become disciples of Christ (leave all to follow Him), walking on the narrow path that leads to life, God is not going to hold our past sins against us. Thus we are forgiven. It didn't take Christ's death to "pay" for them.

If Jesus did not "pay" for our sins so they could be forgiven, can you help me understand why Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified? Further, what was the purpose of all the animal sacrifices in the Old Covenant if that was not to forshadow Jesus coming to die for our sins. Words like atonement and justification come to mind. Because these words have similar meaning to forgiveness, (I think) they indicate His reason for dying to be to forgive, atone and justify us. Perhaps it is as you say, that one must understand the original word meanings and translate them properly.

The scriptures don't give "forgiveness" as the reason Christ died (though we read it this way in most translations. See my original post on the meaning of the Greek word).

Would you mind taking an example from say, Matt. 26:28 where Jesus said, "...My blood...which is shed...for the remission of sins." The margin indicates "remission" can also mean "forgiveness." Is the original Greek word incorrectly interpreted?

He died to save (deliver) us from sin.

Since "saving" and "delivering" both --in my mind anyway--include the meanings of such words as sanctification, character reform, and freedom from sinful nature, etc. then I think I understand your viewpoint on Christ dying to "save (deliver)" us. There seem to be no shortage of words to describe what He did for us and continues to do for us!

I hope you don't mind my questions. I have always had many questions; your posts bring new ones to mind and give me cause to ponder. Thank you.

God bless you,
SueAnn*

[Paidion]

Greetings Sue Ann,

Would you mind taking an example from say, Matt. 26:28 where Jesus said, "...My blood...which is shed...for the remission of sins." The margin indicates "remission" can also mean "forgiveness." Is the original Greek word incorrectly interpreted?

I believe the Greek word "aphesis" (using the Roman alphabet) is the nounal form of the verb "aphiemi" whose primary meaning is "leave".

For example:

Matthew 13:36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."

Jesus left the crowds. He didn't forgive the crowds. Thus in Matt 26:28, Jesus could well have been saying "My blood... which is shed ... for the leaving of sins" or perhaps "for the forsaking of sins"

Likewise there is a passage where the nounal form "aphesis" (the word used in Matt 26:28) could hardly be translated as "forgiveness" or "remission".

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim aphesis to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to send away in aphesis those who are oppressed.

I doubt that Jesus was sent to proclaim forgiveness to the captives or to send away the oppressed in forgiveness. The captives and the oppressed did not need forgiveness. They needed release. And "release" is another meaning of "aphesis".
No translator of which I am aware renders the word as "forgiveness" in this verse.

If you would like to read more concerning my understanding of salvation and forgiveness, please click on the following link:

The Supreme Sacrifice of Jesus Christ