Matthew 7:22 -23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 12:25-28
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
How can the casting of demons be used as no proof of relationship with the Father/Son, and then be used as a proof of a relationship with the Father/Son?
I think I am missing something, and am hoping someone can give me a wee bit o' help on this one
Thanks
Proofs
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blackheart
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:44 pm
Proofs
Blackheart Magillicutty
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
Re: Proofs
How can the casting of demons be used as no proof of relationship with the Father/Son, and then be used as a proof of a relationship with the Father/Son?
Good question! I think in the first example it was the fact that these people made it all about themselves rather then about Jesus. It was'nt the casting or not casting out of devils per se but who these folks gave the glory to, which was themselves.
Good question! I think in the first example it was the fact that these people made it all about themselves rather then about Jesus. It was'nt the casting or not casting out of devils per se but who these folks gave the glory to, which was themselves.
Re: Proofs
I think there are different issues in the two cases. Casting out demons (whether a person utters Jesus' name in the process or not) is no proof that someone is in a relationship with God. As Jesus pointed out, the Jews themselves had exorcists, who must have had some measure of success. This did not necessarily prove anything about their relationship to God. Even witch doctors have some apparent success in this area, on occasion.
Jesus did not say that His casting out of demons proved anything about His relationship with God (although, in His case, it was very indicative), but He said that the casting out of the demons by the Spirit of God was a clear signal that the Kingdom of God (the age of the Spirit, spoken of in the prophets) was upon them.
Jesus' ministry to the demon possessed, like that of His ministry of healing, preaching to the poor, etc. were all compelling indicators that the Holy Spirit was doing a new thing in Israel—things that had been associated, in the prophetic writings, with the anticipated messianic age (Isa.35:5-6; 53:4-5; Ezek.34:11,16, 23), or the age of the Holy Spirit (e.g., Isa.44:3; 61:1-2; Ezek.36:27; Joel 2:28; etc.)—these activities were the kind of "signs of the times" that anyone in Israel would have been expected to recognize as indicators that the Kingdom Age was dawning (Matt.16:3; Luke 7:22).
Jesus did not say that His casting out of demons proved anything about His relationship with God (although, in His case, it was very indicative), but He said that the casting out of the demons by the Spirit of God was a clear signal that the Kingdom of God (the age of the Spirit, spoken of in the prophets) was upon them.
Jesus' ministry to the demon possessed, like that of His ministry of healing, preaching to the poor, etc. were all compelling indicators that the Holy Spirit was doing a new thing in Israel—things that had been associated, in the prophetic writings, with the anticipated messianic age (Isa.35:5-6; 53:4-5; Ezek.34:11,16, 23), or the age of the Holy Spirit (e.g., Isa.44:3; 61:1-2; Ezek.36:27; Joel 2:28; etc.)—these activities were the kind of "signs of the times" that anyone in Israel would have been expected to recognize as indicators that the Kingdom Age was dawning (Matt.16:3; Luke 7:22).
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AaronBDisney
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:13 am
Re: Proofs
I think you made this puzzle a little clearer, Steve, but some things are still a little fuzzy to me.Even witch doctors have some apparent success in this area, on occasion
Would you consider these witch doctors as part of Satan's kingdom? I would suppose in an indirect way they are.
I see your point that it's through the power of God that Jesus is casting them out, but by what power are these witch doctors casting them out.
Jesus claimed that the strong man must be bound in order to take advantage of him and rob him of his possessions. Did these witch doctors or the (possibly ungodly) Jews have the same power to bind Satan prior to his introducing His Kingdom?
Re: Proofs
I don't think so. I said "apparent success" because I don't wish to commit to the idea that these non-christian exorcists really got the permanent results. Demon possession is often characterized by demons coming and going—manifesting at some times, and not others—with or without exorcism. It is possible that certain exorcists have gotten "lucky" and/ or out-lasted a demonic manifestation (that is, they prolonged their ritual indefinitely until such a time as the demon would have ceased manifesting anyway). It may be that the results of these exorcisms were not permanent.
Since I have never witnessed any but genuine Christian deliverances, I cannot say with certainty what really has been accomplished by non-christian exorcisms.
Jesus, though (unlike other exorcists), astonished everyone by getting instant results—every time—upon the mere command that a demon leave its victim. The disciples seem to have gotten similar results, generally.
Since I have never witnessed any but genuine Christian deliverances, I cannot say with certainty what really has been accomplished by non-christian exorcisms.
Jesus, though (unlike other exorcists), astonished everyone by getting instant results—every time—upon the mere command that a demon leave its victim. The disciples seem to have gotten similar results, generally.
Re: Proofs
I think there are different issues in the two cases. Casting out demons (whether a person utters Jesus' name in the process or not) is no proof that someone is in a relationship with God. As Jesus pointed out, the Jews themselves had exorcists, who must have had some measure of success. This did not necessarily prove anything about their relationship to God. Even witch doctors have some apparent success in this area, on occasion.
While this is true, i think in this example the folks rejected by the Lord were surprised at his rejection because they did the miracles in the name of Jesus thinking this pleased him , therefore i take from this that they did it to get the glory for themselves but Jesus could read their hearts and therefore the rejection followed. In other words i think it was more then not proving anything one way or the other , but that they used his name selfishly.
While this is true, i think in this example the folks rejected by the Lord were surprised at his rejection because they did the miracles in the name of Jesus thinking this pleased him , therefore i take from this that they did it to get the glory for themselves but Jesus could read their hearts and therefore the rejection followed. In other words i think it was more then not proving anything one way or the other , but that they used his name selfishly.
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AaronBDisney
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:13 am
Re: Proofs
Really, it's a very helpful revelation to know that just because someone does something seemingly substantial, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are to be followed and imitated.
You see people on TV that are flashy and seemingly fleshly and yet they do (or at least give the appearance of doing) many mighty works. Jesus, very helpfully, lets us know that this is NOT a surefire way to discern that they are genuine.
I have a friend that is really into Benny Hinn. And while I know very little about him, what I've seen has not impressed me, to put it nicely. I told my friend this, but my friend said he was healed at one of Hinn's events and so concluded that he was the real deal. This verse that Jesus gives us tells us that better discernment than that is necessary, though I know that his point was more directly concerning our devoting ourselves to God's will and not big spiritual exploits.
You see people on TV that are flashy and seemingly fleshly and yet they do (or at least give the appearance of doing) many mighty works. Jesus, very helpfully, lets us know that this is NOT a surefire way to discern that they are genuine.
I have a friend that is really into Benny Hinn. And while I know very little about him, what I've seen has not impressed me, to put it nicely. I told my friend this, but my friend said he was healed at one of Hinn's events and so concluded that he was the real deal. This verse that Jesus gives us tells us that better discernment than that is necessary, though I know that his point was more directly concerning our devoting ourselves to God's will and not big spiritual exploits.