Some Hard Questions

[thirdwoe]

Hey Steve & all...

I have been in a discussion on Facebook with a guy, and he sent me a number of hard questions that I am going to attempt answering, but before I do, I wanted to get some input from others, to see if what others see in the Scriptures.

Here are the Q's:

what is the difference between the spirit of man returning to the Father and one who has the Holy Spirit in them that are in the Father?

What is this spirit of man in comparison with those who have uplinked back to God?

Do you feel all spirits are a part of God and none of them will be lost?

Do these spirits just forfeit their individuality and remain forever in spirit form?

Is a man's Spirit a part of the man at all or just a breath?

When the soul and body dies, what is left of the person?

What in the person or individual lies in the spirit?

What is Satan's spirit and will it also return to God?

What happens to our spirit once it is reborn of God's Spirit? What does it gain, it is said to have eternal life but what is the difference than with those who were carnal and their spirits came back to God???


He goes on to say...

Please take one question on at a time. I really need to know these things and it is one of the shady areas for me.

I try to explain God's Spirit as an ocean that enters Christ the inlet and fills up the dried up river beds of men. But then when thinking about the carnal human, I am trying to differentiate between their spirit and ours and what happens to the spirits of the carnal and the spirits of the righteous. Both seem to go back to God? So can anyone give a good explanation of the difference between these spirits as well as demonic spirits that operate in flesh bodies as well?

[mikew]

The concept of preexisting spirits would more likely be a doctrine held in reincarnation-focused religions. The scriptures speak more toward the idea that the people are created new in the womb.

One verse that gives a little glimpse into the concept of the spirit is as follows:
Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.

Another translation says "the spirit is alive because of righteousness." The implication is that the spirit is dead without Christ. In a sense we could say that God's influence works in us because a part of us has been activated that was inactive before. Alternately, we could say that we can only cooperate with God as our spirit cooperates -- this is because the flesh (man's nature) doesn't cooperate with God. There is a duality of existence for the Christian that does not seem to have relevance to the non-believer (at least for the purpose of Paul's instruction in Romans 8).

Now another concept is important, namely that scripture doesn't speak of the immortality of the soul (or of man's spirit). The only time that men that have eternal existence is through salvation in Christ. As such there is no indication that spirits (or a hypothetical spirit material) returns to some source after people die.

[thirdwoe]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your thoughts and insight.

I brought some of this up today on the Narrow Path radio broadcast with Steve, and he touched on a few of the other points.

I don't think Chad is asking about the preexistence of human spirits, but rather just what it is and how it all works.

I tend to agree with you that our being is created new in the womb, though there are a few statements, like "before I formed you in your mothers womb, I knew you." And "to those whom He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son..." Also that names are written in the Lambs Book of Life, before the foundation of the world....

It all could be just foreknowledge, and not a pre-human existence of some kind, like The Son of God had.

I don't teach it...but I have pondered it to some degree, but there is not enough to go on in the Scriptures to stand on it doctrinally, as far as I can tell.

I agree with your statement that without Christ in us we are dead or lifeless spiritually or in our spirit, though I would consider the passage where it says Christ "lights every man who come into the world." It seems that there is some light/life in them and it would seem it is talking about the spirit...but maybe only the soul is in view. Also the passage where it speaks of the spirit of man as the Lamp of God, could explain this lighting. It also talks of the putting out the light of the wicked...

Job 18:5-6
5 "The light of the wicked indeed goes out, and the flame of his fire does not shine. 6 The light is dark in his tent, and his lamp beside him is put out. (NKJ)

Prov 13:9
9 "The light of the righteous rejoices, but the lamp of the wicked will be put out." (NKJ)

Prov 20:27
27 "The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, searching all the inner depths of his heart. (NKJ)

Zech 12:1
1 "...Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:..." (NKJ)


And as to your last statement that there is nothing in man what is eternal...I would tend to agree based on the Scripture that says this.

Eccl 12:7
7 "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (NKJ)

1 Tim 6:13-16
13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. (NKJ)

And as to the last line of your last statement, what do you say that this verse means? Just our natural breath or air in the lungs? It says "God who gave it". Maybe this is goes along with this passage: Isa 42:55 "Thus saith God the LORD, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: (KJV)

And that could tie into the "light" or "life" that is given every one who comes into the world.



Blessings,
Charley

[thirdwoe]

I just came across this verse as well...which seems helpful to the discussion.

Job 18:5-6
5 "The light of the wicked indeed goes out, and the flame of his fire does not shine. 6 The light is dark in his tent, and his lamp beside him is put out. (NKJ)

[darinhouston]

...not a pre-human existence of some kind, like The Son of God had.

Even that has been the subject of considerable debate, though the only "reasonable" debate in my opinion is the "eternality" vs. pre-existence (e.g., "was begetting a separate act from incarnation?") and what extent the "man" Jesus is distinct from the pre-incarnate Word/Son.

[Murf]

You may want to ask a little different questions. "Why do you think you need to know these kinds of questions?" His answer may give some insight to what is really concerning him.

I find these kind of questions interesting to discuss but I'm not really sure they are vital for understand how God wants us to live our lives day to day.