Paidion
I am sure that you can find things wrong with the way that I observe the Sabbath Day. No, I do not turn the furnace off on the Sabbath Day. I even drive my car on the Sabbath day and the sparkplugs start many fires on the way to Church! You may feel satisfied that I am just as much a Sabbath breaker as you are. --- However,
I do have a point that you may not want to consider. Attempting to obey God and falling short, is quite different from ignoring Him.
If you think that I am wrong, show me the scriptures. I am ready to be corrected!
keeping Gods comandments
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kaufmannphillips
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:00 pm
Re: keeping Gods comandments
@Dennis007 - If you choose to drive your car on Shabbath, being aware that the sparkplugs start many fires, how is this "[a]ttempting to obey God"?
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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Re: keeping Gods comandments
I had the same reaction to this as that expressed by kaufmannphillips.Attempting to obey God and falling short, is quite different from ignoring Him.
I also wonder whether you are suggesting that Paidion is "ignoring" God. I think many of us know him well enough to know that he is not ignoring God.
Who is more guilty of ignoring God, the man who does not believe that God cares about sabbath observance, but who obeys the commands that he understands to be those which God requires him to keep, or the man who believes that God wants him to keep sabbath, but doesn't do so?
Re: keeping Gods comandments
I think it wise to rate the importance of the things Jesus did ----- especially since He Himself broke the Sabbath! [John 5:18]Dennis wrote:Do you know who Jesus is? Have you read the 1st chapter of John's Gospel? Do you know who created this world in 6 days and rested on the seventh day? Who do you think it was that blessed the seventh day and made it holy? Who was it that spoke to Moses out of the burning bush? Who was that Rock that Moses struck, and out flowed life-giving water? Who do you think it was that wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger in tables of stone? Do you think it is wise to rate the importance of the things Jesus did?
He also indicated that the priests in the temple profaned the Sabbath but were not sinning in doing so. [Matthew 12:5]
Justin Martyr, a 2nd century Christian dialogued with a group of Jewish persons for days, explaining from the Scriptures that Jesus was divine and worthy of worship. Among other topics he explained how under the New Covenant, the Sabbath is kept in a different fashion:
Justin Martyr’s Explanation of the Sabbath to the Jews. Source: Dialogue With Trypho
(Justin lived from 110 – 165 A.D.)
Righteous Men of Old Kept No Sabbaths
... all those righteous men already mentioned [Abel, Enoch, Noah,] ,
though they kept no Sabbaths, were pleasing to God; and after them
Abraham with all his descendants until Moses... Chapter 19
..For if there was no need of circumcision before
Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before
Moses; no more need is there of them now,...Chapter 23
Nature Does Not Observe Sabbath Days
Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Chapter 23
God Himself Does Not Observe the Sabbath Day
Think it not strange that we drink hot water on the Sabbaths, since God directs
the government of the universe on this day equally as on all others.. Chapter 29
The True Israelites Are Those Who Come to God Through Christ
For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the
father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed. Chapter 11 (near the end)
We Are Now Required To Keep Sabbath Daily By Resting From Sin and Working Righteousness
The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure. Chapter 12 (at the end)
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: keeping Gods comandments
Paidion: Please excuse me for insinuating that you or any other sunday worshiping christians ignore God. I was raised a Lutheran, and I was taught that the Sabbath Commandment does not apply to christians. I was wrong for making that remark and I appologize!
Now about household heat:
I think that this is the verse you had in mind.
Exodus 35
3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
You think that I am breaking the Sabbath. I don't think that I am. Let me explain. You think that the prohibition was on the fire, but I believe that the prohibition was on the kindle. There are some places on this earth where stopping the heat in your home could be life threatning. The Sabbath is not primarily about the use of fire. It is primarily about time management. I do not kindle a fire on the Sabbath day. I do not cut wood, or gather wood, or chop kindling, or fill propane tanks or fill the cars gas tank on the Sabbath day. These things can be done on another day. The only man I know of that was punished for this prohibition, was not punished because he had a fire. He was punished for gathering kindling, which could have been done on another day.
My wife and I make extensive preparation for the Sabbath day, so that we have time for worship, study, prayer, evangelism, and acts of kindness and mercy. I think that using my car on the Sabbath day is good time management. We bring people to church who might use a taxi or bus or not come at all. There was a time that we brought so many people to church that we had to drive 2 cars.
Now about household heat:
I think that this is the verse you had in mind.
Exodus 35
3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
You think that I am breaking the Sabbath. I don't think that I am. Let me explain. You think that the prohibition was on the fire, but I believe that the prohibition was on the kindle. There are some places on this earth where stopping the heat in your home could be life threatning. The Sabbath is not primarily about the use of fire. It is primarily about time management. I do not kindle a fire on the Sabbath day. I do not cut wood, or gather wood, or chop kindling, or fill propane tanks or fill the cars gas tank on the Sabbath day. These things can be done on another day. The only man I know of that was punished for this prohibition, was not punished because he had a fire. He was punished for gathering kindling, which could have been done on another day.
My wife and I make extensive preparation for the Sabbath day, so that we have time for worship, study, prayer, evangelism, and acts of kindness and mercy. I think that using my car on the Sabbath day is good time management. We bring people to church who might use a taxi or bus or not come at all. There was a time that we brought so many people to church that we had to drive 2 cars.
Re: keeping Gods comandments
Paidion: Part 2
Some months ago, we had a lady who had recently gotten out of prison and got a job. She got a ride to our church, but she had no way to get to the job. We normally do not buy and sell on the Sabbath day. I went across the street to the Safeway store and bought her 3 weeks worth of bus tickets. You may think that I broke the Sabbath. I think that I will be commended for mercy and kindness.
I don't think that God is concerned about the fire in my car's engine or the fire in my home furnace, or the fire in a light bulb on the Sabbath day. I think that for a Jew to ask a gentile to turn on his light switch on the Sabbath day, is absurd. I think that what God really cares about is that I manage my time to make good use of the Holy Day to advance His Kingdom.
Some months ago, we had a lady who had recently gotten out of prison and got a job. She got a ride to our church, but she had no way to get to the job. We normally do not buy and sell on the Sabbath day. I went across the street to the Safeway store and bought her 3 weeks worth of bus tickets. You may think that I broke the Sabbath. I think that I will be commended for mercy and kindness.
I don't think that God is concerned about the fire in my car's engine or the fire in my home furnace, or the fire in a light bulb on the Sabbath day. I think that for a Jew to ask a gentile to turn on his light switch on the Sabbath day, is absurd. I think that what God really cares about is that I manage my time to make good use of the Holy Day to advance His Kingdom.
Re: keeping Gods comandments
Paidion:
Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath because he healed a man on the Sabbath day, and blasphemy because he called God his father. If you believe his accusers, then you must also believe that Jesus is a liar, because He said that He kept the commandments.
Actually, his accusers were the Sabbath breakers. They were seeking to kill Him on the Sabbath day.
John 15
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
I think that his accusers were wrong. I think that healing is lawful on the Sabbath day! I don't think that Jesus lied. I think that he kept the comnmandments!
Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath because he healed a man on the Sabbath day, and blasphemy because he called God his father. If you believe his accusers, then you must also believe that Jesus is a liar, because He said that He kept the commandments.
Actually, his accusers were the Sabbath breakers. They were seeking to kill Him on the Sabbath day.
John 15
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
I think that his accusers were wrong. I think that healing is lawful on the Sabbath day! I don't think that Jesus lied. I think that he kept the comnmandments!
Re: keeping Gods comandments
The verse cited (John 5:18) does not say that Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath day. Please read it more objectively. John (the author) affirms that Jesus (1) broke the sabbath and that He (2) called God His Father, making Himself equal with God. Jehovah's witnesses say He did not do the latter; Sabbatarians say He did not do the former. John says that He did both.Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath because he healed a man on the Sabbath day, and blasphemy because he called God his father.
Re: keeping Gods comandments
Dennis,
Shouldn't you be staying home on the sabbath and go to church another day? How do sabbatarians get around this:
Exodus 29:27-29
27. Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28. And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29. See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”
Shouldn't you be staying home on the sabbath and go to church another day? How do sabbatarians get around this:
Exodus 29:27-29
27. Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28. And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29. See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”
Re: keeping Gods comandments
Belief system contradictions:
2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
When your belief system is found to contradict scripture, then the belief system is faulty and needs to be adjusted. My belief system has been adjusted and updated many times.
The Sunday going belief system is in major conflict with the 4th Commandment. Instead of correcting their belief system, they look for a Biblical excuse to disregard it. The real problem is: how do you remove the 4th commandment while keeping the other 9 in tact?
Here is one way to do it. We can lift John 5:18 out of its context and tell everyone “see, Jesus broke the Sabbath! It’s OK for all of us to break it now!
(For those who are interested, — The context of John 5:18 goes back to the Babylonian captivity)
Let’s look at some of the problems involved.
Exodus 12
5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year:
Jesus is no longer a lamb without blemish! He is no longer fit to be a sacrifice. The plan of salvation is aborted, and Satan wins!
John 15
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
This plan makes Jesus out to be a liar!
1 John 3
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Another contradiction, Now John says he didn’t sin. So John is lying to us now, is that right?
Psalms 111
7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
Do they ALL stand fast? Or just 9 of them?
Isaiah 66
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
If the Sabbath has been done away, why will everyone be keeping it in the new earth?
After 4,000 years of required Sabbath keeping, then Jesus breaks his own commandment?? So now Jesus is a hypocrite? Is that right? Isn’t that what you call a Legislator that breaks his own law?
2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
When your belief system is found to contradict scripture, then the belief system is faulty and needs to be adjusted. My belief system has been adjusted and updated many times.
The Sunday going belief system is in major conflict with the 4th Commandment. Instead of correcting their belief system, they look for a Biblical excuse to disregard it. The real problem is: how do you remove the 4th commandment while keeping the other 9 in tact?
Here is one way to do it. We can lift John 5:18 out of its context and tell everyone “see, Jesus broke the Sabbath! It’s OK for all of us to break it now!
(For those who are interested, — The context of John 5:18 goes back to the Babylonian captivity)
Let’s look at some of the problems involved.
Exodus 12
5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year:
Jesus is no longer a lamb without blemish! He is no longer fit to be a sacrifice. The plan of salvation is aborted, and Satan wins!
John 15
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
This plan makes Jesus out to be a liar!
1 John 3
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Another contradiction, Now John says he didn’t sin. So John is lying to us now, is that right?
Psalms 111
7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
Do they ALL stand fast? Or just 9 of them?
Isaiah 66
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
If the Sabbath has been done away, why will everyone be keeping it in the new earth?
After 4,000 years of required Sabbath keeping, then Jesus breaks his own commandment?? So now Jesus is a hypocrite? Is that right? Isn’t that what you call a Legislator that breaks his own law?