Steve,
Don’t you believe that Jesus existed before he was born in Bethlehem? I used to think that the Father did all those things too, – until I studied it for myself!
Of course the Word existed before the incarnation (John 1:1). However, the Word was not known as "Jesus" until He was born (John 1:14/ Matt.1:21), and came to be identified as "the Son of Man," "the man Jesus" (1 Tim.2:5), and as "the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).
Isaiah 44
6 " Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ' I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Take this verse for instance, – Who is Israel’s Redeemer? The Father or the Son?
So according to scripture, the Son is the LORD of hosts, and the First and the Last. That means that Jesus is LORD of hosts of the old testament, prior to His Incarnation. Not only that, Jesus claimed to be the “I AM” before Abraham existed. The Jewish leadership understood his claim and were preparing to stone Him. Let’s see, Jesus claimed to be the “I AM” but Steve says “no, it was the Father.” I appeal to the reader – who is right? Steve, or Jesus?
In the Old Testament, YHWH redeemed Israel from Egypt and from Babylon, as Isaiah says. In the New Testament, the Son of Man redeemed mankind by giving Himself as a ransom (Mark 10:45; Gal.3:13; Rev.5:9). In this, Jesus was acting on His Father's behalf, which means that God redeemed us through Christ. In that sense, both God the Father and Jesus can be said to have redeemed us.
You did not answer my last question. Are you a modalist? If you let us know, then we can know what your position is and give you a relevant answer. You are clearly not trinitarian. I believe that YHWH (the LORD) is Father, Word, and Holy Spirit. However, the Word did not take on a separate identity from the Father until the incarnation. I know of no scripture that teaches otherwise. Christ certainly did identify Himself with YHWH, but He also distinguished Himself from the Father.
Did Jesus say that He Himself had given the ten commandments, or did He consider that His Father had given them?
We know that the same voice that gave Moses the law also instructed him in the construction of the tabernacle (later replaced by the temple). This was the voice of YHWH, and these structures, when they were standing, were regarded to be "the house of YHWH" (e.g., Ex. 23:19; 34:26 / 1 Kings 6:1, 37, etc.). Jesus spoke of the temple as "My Father's house" (John 2:16)—apparently regarding YHWH to be His Father.
The same YHWH who gave the law also gave Israel manna in the wilderness. Jesus said that it was His Father who did that (John 6:32).
In John 8:54, Jesus said that the One that He calls His Father is the One that the Jews called their God. The Jews called YHWH their God. Thus Jesus said it was His Father who had revealed Himself at Sinai and had entered into a covenant making Israel His people and Himself their God.
In John 15:10, Jesus distinguishes between His commandments (given by Him to His disciples) and His Father's commandments, which had been given earlier. Into which of these categories should we place the ten commandments?
You have a reasonably strong adherence to the verses that affirm the deity of Christ, but you do not seem to have a grasp of the many verses where Christ distinguishes Himself from the Father. It is not my purpose to unravel all the mystery associated with this identification/distinction dichotomy. I am simply saying that Jesus regarded the Father as the one who had revealed Himself at Sinai, had given the law, had sustained Israel in the wilderness, had dwelt in the tabernacle and temple, and was, in general, Israel's God.
Jesus said, moreover, that He had come down from God (John 16:28), that He was His Son on earth (John 5:17-18), and had been given authority to speak for Him (John 7:16-17) and to act (e.g., to forgive sins) on His behalf (Matt.9:6).
As such, there were commandments that Jesus gave to His disciples, which were not given previously (e.g., John 13:34-35/ Mat.28:19) and being a Christian (a disciple of Jesus) is defined in our keeping the words and commands that He, the man Jesus, gave to His followers (John 8:31/ Matt.28:20)—not those given by His Father to Israel at Mount Sinai.
Steve said:
“When giving His commandments to His disciples, He did not inform them that He was God, nor did they think of Him as God.”
Wrong again Steve!
Matthew 1
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
Help me out here...where, in this passage, do you see Jesus telling His disciples that He is God? Does this passage say that the disciples knew Jesus was God in His lifetime?
John 1: The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Where, in this passage, do you see Jesus telling His disciples that He is God? Does this passage say that the disciples knew Jesus was God in His lifetime?
John 8
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
The disciple John wrote down that Jesus claimed to be the “I AM”. How could he not have known – when he is the one that wrote it?
Where, in this passage, do you see Jesus telling His disciples that He is God? Does this passage say that the disciples knew Jesus was God in His lifetime?
John 20
27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
where, in this passage, do you see Jesus telling His disciples that He is God? Does this passage say that the disciples knew Jesus was God in His lifetime?
Where, in this passage, do you see Jesus telling His disciples that He is God? Does this passage say that the disciples knew Jesus was God in His lifetime?
Acts 7
59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
Where, in this passage, do you see Jesus telling His disciples that He is God? Does this passage say that the disciples knew Jesus was God in His lifetime?
