Romans 5:12-19 Pelagian

[alastairblake]

well cool. I am not like... set on a theological position, but I am certainly interested in resolving my understanding of:

God's sovereignty (which I believe means he has all power and control opportunity, but I do not believe that this means he determines ALL things.
and then closely related: The Problem of Evil, the Greater Good Theodicy, Gratuitous Evil, Man's Responsibility.

and I feel that the topic of Total Depravity is a big tipping point.

Its certainly required for any takes of Calvinism, and also for Classical Arminianism.

I dont know much about Open Theism.

I think that the Free Will of humans is what gives justification to all judgment, accountability, reward, respect, etc in relation to God and man. I see it as essential in order for these things to hold significance... (by free will I do NOT mean that man can just... determine tons of stuff. But in God's sovereignty, I think he gives humans many opportunities for moral decisions that are solely the responsibility of mankind.

hope im making sense. well, again, good to be with you guys. should I make another post maybe?

[Sean]

hey guys. i want to say that I am happy to have this forum available to me

I have struggled deeply over Calvinism, Original Sin, God's Love for ALL? or just some? etc the past few years in my life.

anyway, onto the topic...

benstenson, Im following with ya.

I guess for me, when read the beginning of Genesis lately, I have paid more attention to the two trees than I used to. I know the Tree of Life is again available to us once God remakes the Earth... and it is also this tree that God declared Man was not permitted to eat from lest he live.

22 Then the Lord God said, q“Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand rand take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden sto work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the tcherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life. ~ESV

I have come to wonder if death was not a matter of change, or introduction, but that Man no longer could have access to the ToL. Just like how we die by default, it seems to me like the ToL is what would have made living forever possible. Physical death already existed on the earth, with insects and tiny organisms dying every second. As far as spiritual death, I dont see that actually being introduced by the text.

The text doesn't discuss a changed nature, but instead consequences because of Adam's choice to disobey. So he was separated from the ToL. God obviously interacts with Man after this, even approaching Cain when he is angry. God tells Cain that sin's desire is for him, but that he must rule over it. I honestly do NOT see Total Depravity introduced in the creation accounts... What are some of your thoughts?

I guess Pelagius is going to be mentioned. I dont know much about him, but I have been seeing his name. But anyway, Id love to hear from you all.

It seems to me that people are not "good" or "bad" but that it is their moral choices that are good or bad. I believe that God has people accountable because he has made them able to make moral choice.

sorry if im beating a dead horse. Honestly, im just happy to talk to you all. I have had my fair share of introspection and fear while interacting with, and listening to tons of reformed baptist stuff etc, and im trying to make sense of things.

I tend to see it the same way you have described.

Also, about the issue of a baby that dies, the text of Romans reads:

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam

Death reigned without sins being imputed before the law. Interesting. It does not say death occurred because Adam's sin was imputed to us.

[steve7150]

I think that the Free Will of humans is what gives justification to all judgment, accountability, reward, respect, etc in relation to God and man. I see it as essential in order for these things to hold significance... (by free will I do NOT mean that man can just... determine tons of stuff. But in God's sovereignty, I think he gives humans many opportunities for moral decisions that are solely the responsibility of mankind.



I think we have a will but i doubt it's free or unencumbered. It's affected by our culture our family and friends and Paul even says the minds of unbelievers are blinded. However we are capable of choosing.
Anyway i think Rom 5.12 says "death passed upon all men, FOR THAT all have sinned." So i think our mortality or our dying state has something to do with the fact we have corrupted flesh with a strong inclination toward sin. Just look at kids, they are cute but selfish as sin, until they get older and start thinking of other people, hopefully.

[alastairblake]

I dont mean this as a disagreement S7150. I do which I knew Greek....

[alastairblake]

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

[alastairblake]

is it possible that because of Adam's sin, death entered. but that doesnt mean that sin and death are the same thing. death could now be default result, with death occurring regardless if one transgresses?

but then: 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—


death came to all people... but then... "because all sinned" so does death come to each individual because each sins, earning his own death?

I think it reads a bit different without the verse numbers or the "—" but i really dont know. parts seem to go with a total depravity, others not. and now were in Romans, not Genesis (not meaning that Romans is below Genesis. I am just trying to look at this from beginning to end, instead of a first understanding of NT passages, and possibly reading an interpretation that is my own into OT. i only say this because I could be wrong, not Paul. and I could be wrong on a NT portion first, and then have it color how I read the OT. I think Genesis should be quite foundational though... should mesh well with NT explination.

dont know what i sound like to you guys.