God's Creation of Souls

[darinhouston]

I'm not a hard core dualist (maybe you should say pluralist since there are dichotamists and trichotamists in the mix), but I see Paul talking often about inner man and outer man, "in the spirit," and the like. There also does seem to be some form of pluralism to our natures that distinguishes the "soulish creatures" from the other creatures. A frog and a dog are very different in that respect. In total, though scripture isn't outright in this when dealing with the afterlife, there does seem to be an undercurrent of presupposition by the biblical writers that there is "something" different that comprises "us" than just our bodies and minds and "breath of life" which has innate personality.

[jeremiah]

darin,
yeah man, your last statement touches on something that is often misunderstood about the view i'm defending.(not suggesting you're mistaking me, just in general) that is, it denies that us experiencing and communing with the spirit of God to be real. or that what we experience spiritually is just some figment of our imagination. which couldn't be further from what i'm affirming. all those things which in the past i would have described as "knowing in my spirit" or an aching deep in my soul, i consider real. the difference is i no longer think the scriptures teach there is anything immaterial about the human person. but that all those things are experienced and generated physically (except of course that generated by the spirit of God) i once thought it sensible to affirm that if the love i experience with my wife or daughters is simply neurons firing in my brain, then it is therefore cheapened or not as meaningful. i no longer think this, for i am still fearfully and wonderfully made. my respect and awe for what God has done as creator of all things has actually become more acutely profound than before. which of course i realize is something that can occur regardless of our view of the human person.

regarding pluralists , that's not a bad suggestion actually. in my study, dichotomists and trichotomists are two different schools within what is classically called dualism. basically only differing on whether the soul and the spirit are one in the same or two different entities. but still, maybe we can add another ist to the list.

grace and peace...

[darinhouston]

Some animals clearly seem to live by instinct in every way -- others with higher order mental capacities still seem to lack the ability to love -- there is an "other-ness" to a third category of animals such as dogs and chimps and humans -- that "other-ness" still could be seen as material and is of the order you discuss above -- but, there is another sense in which humans are unique from all creation -- I think whatever that "otherness" is it is not material -- it is from God and is spiritual and we can relate to him and reflect Him in a way that other animals can't/don't. That is what I think Paul calls the inner man -- beyond emotion. Was Christ asleep during His three days of bodily death?

[jriccitelli]

Are you certain that He said that, JR? Are you quite sure He did not say, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with Me in Paradise"?
I am going to make a big deal out of this because this is not the first time I've heard it, and I'm tired of it.
First, I am aware of the deficiency of Greek punctuation.
This phrase of Jesus is very common to Jesus; 'Truly I say to you'. This common phrase becomes common because it is repeated verbatim. Adding 'today' to the phrase is not common. And I am willing to bet 'very' uncommon, or unfound, in ancient writing of the time.

"But I'm sure we've all heard people say, "I'm telling you right now, ..." Today/right now — not much difference.
Some people may use such a phrase, but it still doesn't make much sense.
This is still really poor grammar no matter what language a person is speaking. It sounds like a line an upset parent would say when arguing with a child.
Jesus repeatedly uses this line when He wants to establish attention to what he is about to say, so why would he add a confusing word of 'no significance' (everyone knew it was today) to a phrase He no doubt had said many, many times, only to sound like gabby Rhetoric (while He is in pain, on a cross).
More likely the word 'today' had great significance.
People generally correct themselves after saying something confusing. Jesus is never that 'sloppy' with His words. Jesus never uses the phrase 'truly I say to you today' 'pause', anywhere else, yet Jesus uses the phrase Truly I say to you 30 times (!) in Matthew, and 30 times (!) in John, and I'm sure they are not all parallel verses. (There are 7 references to 'Truly I say to you' in Luke's Gospel)

[jriccitelli]

Paidion on your breakdown of the soul/body I tend to agree.
I am glad you laid it out, I think your dichotomy here is correct until you get to where the breath of life (or spirit of life) goes back to God, and you say;
This life has no consciousness; it is simply life itself. It is not the soul. The body that remains is not the soul. So where is the soul at death? It no longer exists!

We are finally getting back to what might interest Rich's question.
Where we may agree Paidion is that I lean towards the idea that;
Our spirit at birth (or conception) is a blank sheet of paper, and that our self-identity and character start to develop some time after conception, not before. I don’t think 'we' are put into a body (Although God 'could' form the character, as I tend to think along open theist thought, God 'could' develop a person whom He has in mind, but this method would be the 'exception' to what God 'allows to happen' more naturally as we become a person).

I do not think God is creating personalities and putting them into bodies, arguably, I think this would be rather weird, although it is the popular opinion and theory.
This is going to seem really harsh to some, but is God like a honey bee going around to wombs all day long and implanting spirits?
I think God did this twice, once with Adam, and once with Jesus the second Adam. With Adam God said it is done, and with Jesus He said it is finished.
I don’t want to risk getting locked up in a tower over this since it is neither a necessary premise to the future of the soul and cannot be established dogmatically
If God has created DNA to reproduce thousands of species, and He has created cells that develop into cows, whales and redwood trees it should not be 'improbable' that God could design the human spirit to reproduce also.

Where I split with Paidion is here; I think the human spirit is uniquely human, and that each body possesses a human spirit with tendencies to love, care, need, feel, give, take, desire, etc. and that through life we become a person who has amassed and become a myriad of personal characteristics that have become written, as it may, on our heart.
So again;
Body + spirit (a blank sheet with a capacity to learn, love, experience and become) = the person we are. Upon death of the body; our spirit, that is now complete, goes with His Spirit back to the Father.
Body - spirit + Spirit = dead body

Body (Old body, goes into ground) - Our spirit and His Spirit goes to God.
('In order that our body of sin might be done away with'. Romans 6:6)
('Who will set me free from the body of this death?' Rom.7:24)
('God will do away with both of them'. 1Cor.6:13)

Where we exist (awake or asleep) and wait for our 'new' bodies.
('Waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body'. Rom.8:23)
('And to each of the seeds a body of its own'. 1Cor.15:38)
('Rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord'. 2Cor 5:8)

The phrase 'the dead shall rise' must refer to the spirits of men receiving a new body, which quite 'possibly' may come from the atomic dust that the earth is made of, or it could just be a analogy of receiving the new body from wherever.
To imagine that the actual old body or the dust of the actual old body is what we receive back is not probable, so it must refer to the new body.
That we are a person of spirit, is necessary for Paul to describe it thus;

For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed(2 Corinthians 5:1-4)

Like Darin said, There is 'something' Paul has put off, and 'something' he longs to put on.

[jeremiah]

-- beyond emotion. Was Christ asleep during His three days of bodily death?

yes, i believe Christ was dead, and praise God, he is now alive forevermore.

grace and peace...

[darinhouston]

-- beyond emotion. Was Christ asleep during His three days of bodily death?

yes, i believe Christ was dead, and praise God, he is now alive forevermore.

grace and peace...

Do you believe He existed prior to His incarnation? If so, did He cease to exist during death?

[jeremiah]

Do you believe He existed prior to His incarnation? If so, did He cease to exist during death?

Christ's existence before becoming a man, yes. his non existence during death, a qualified yes. that is, i don't know exactly how that 'worked out' so to say, but i see the scriptures exhausting language to tell us that he was dead as dead can be until his resurrection. if you mean was Christ completely and utterly annihilated during death, then no, i would not describe it in that way. grace and peace...