God actively hates some of us ?

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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TK
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Re: God actively hates some of us ?

Post by TK » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:02 pm

darinhouston wrote:I guess I've heard some pretty ugly stuff from MacArthur too. Not to mention Piper. Now, back to our program....
I guess I have never heard John M be nasty, but I guess I wouldnt put it past him. I have never heard tons from Piper but a lot of what I have heard/read is really good. But again I will take your word for it.

TK

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Ian
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Re: God actively hates some of us ?

Post by Ian » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:48 am

I have a much easier time applying Mark Driscoll`s hard message to myself than I do to others, particulaly those close to me. Are there others here who feel the same?

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Michelle
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Re: God actively hates some of us ?

Post by Michelle » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:27 am

Yeah, Ian, I think I do the same. I know that without Christ I am nothing; I am not special nor meritorious nor productive. There is nothing in me to commend me to God and much, oh so much, that alienates me from Him. I fully realize that this was Mark Driscoll's message: apart from Christ we are doomed. Yet, within me is this penchant toward idolatry (myself being the idol) that rises up to inform me that with enough effort I can be clever and winsome enough to finesse God's attention and then His love. When Driscoll spent 15 minutes driving home his hatred point, it hits me square that I am condemned. Maybe thats good? I don't know, the sermon turned me off; it didn't send me back to Christ, even though that's where the pastor ended up.

For LaVonne,

You listed several passages for consideration, some of which Mark Driscoll referenced. Here is my take on the first one, Psalm 5 (fully realizing that I'm now counted as a "Christian on the run.")

Here's the whole psalm:

To the Chief Musician. With flutes. A Psalm of David. Give ear to my words, O LORD, Consider my meditation.
Give heed to the voice of my cry, My King and my God, For to You I will pray.
My voice You shall hear in the morning, O LORD; In the morning I will direct [it] to You, And I will look up.

For You [are] not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You.
The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

But as for me, I will come into Your house in the multitude of Your mercy; In fear of You I will worship toward Your holy temple.
Lead me, O LORD, in Your righteousness because of my enemies; Make Your way straight before my face.
For [there is] no faithfulness in their mouth; Their inward part [is] destruction; Their throat [is] an open tomb; They flatter with their tongue.

Pronounce them guilty, O God! Let them fall by their own counsels; Cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions, For they have rebelled against You.
But let all those rejoice who put their trust in You; Let them ever shout for joy, because You defend them; Let those also who love Your name Be joyful in You. -
For You, O LORD, will bless the righteous; With favor You will surround him as [with] a shield. - (Psa 5:1-12 NKJV)
The first part is David begging the Lord to listen to his cry. Then, in the next section, he gives God reasons he should listen to David's prayer, and included in this reasoning is the phrase about God hating people. If David meant this triad of verses to commend David to God, he was really barking up the wrong tree. He mentions attitudes that God doesn't have affinity toward: wickedness, boastfulness, deceitfulness - all sins that David at one time or another has been guilty of. David cannot expect to stand before God on account of his innocence.

I think David is instead extolling God's virtue in these verses, contrasting the profanity of men with the holiness of God. He's asking God to listen to his prayers because God is not evil, boastful, or a worker of iniquity. I think the next verse (vs 7) expresses this. David says it is in the multitude of God's mercy that he comes to humbly worship. Some translations use the word lovingkindness or steadfast love. It is precisely because of God's holiness and His mercy that we can approach Him. The point is not that God hates most of us, but that God loves all of us and desires to shower us with mercy. How else can you explain Christ? In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. - 1Jo 4:10 (NKJV)

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darinhouston
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Re: God actively hates some of us ?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:00 am

Michelle, amen!

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steve
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Re: God actively hates some of us ?

Post by steve » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:53 pm

There is nothing wrong (that is, nothing unscriptural) about saying that God "hates" some people—depending upon how the word is being understood. The words can be found in places like those that Mark Driscoll cites (e.g., Psalm 5:5 and 11:5). But the term "hate" needs to be understood as the opposite of "liking" (an emotional reaction) rather than the opposite of "loving" (a moral response).

In Psalm 5, for example, God's hatred for certain people is parallel with taking no "pleasure" in wickedness:
For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You.
Note the structure of the following couplet, which contains two parallel lines—which I will label 1(a, b); 2(a, b):
1 (a) The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; (b) You hate all workers of iniquity.
2.(a) You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; (b)The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
In the two lines, the (a) clauses speak of people's speech: 1(a) boasting; 2(a) speaking falsehood.
In both lines, the (b) portions speak of actions: 1(b) working iniquity; 2(b) bloodthirstiness and deceit

In 1(a) and 2(a) fates are described: not standing in God's sight and being destroyed.
In 1(b) and 2(b) God's attitudes are described: hatred and abhorrence.

Abhorrence is here parallel with hatred. The former clearly means finding something disgusting or loathsome, and is strictly an emotional reaction.

"Hatred" can mean "not loving" (as in 1 John 2:10-11), but often really means "not liking" (as in Psalm 5).

"Liking" has to do with finding enjoyment and pleasure in a thing: "I like coffee."
If I find immense displeasure in a thing, I can express my antipathy with the word "hate": "I hate cream soda."
In such cases, "love" and "hate" refer only to emotional or visceral reactions.

Though we sometimes use the word "love" only to mean "extreme liking" (as in, "I love chocolate"), it is not used this way in scripture. There, love has to do with a person's commitment to another's benefit, and a willingness to sacrifice to secure another's well-being.

We can love someone, in this sense of commitment to their good, even when the object of our love brings us great displeasure and unhappiness. God loves His enemies, though it cannot be imagined that He likes (or "finds pleasure in") them. Similarly, we are never told to "like" our enemies (or even our brethren!), but only to love them—which we can do, even when our dislike of them is extreme.

Such extreme displeasure can be expressed as "hatred" in the sense of great dislike: "I hate going to the dentist!"

However, finding extreme displeasure in a person does not mean we do not love them, in the biblical sense, while hating them in this other sense.

It is not contradictory for God to say He "hates" certain things and certain people (if His saying so means only that they bring Him the polar opposite of "enjoyment"), and, at the same time, to say He "loves" them (if we see this as meaning He is willing to sacrifice everything to secure their well-being).

God's "hatred" of sinners is, therefore, His emotional reaction to their thoughts and behavior, while His love for them is His moral response toward their plight.

When "hate" means only the polar opposite of "like", it is entirely possible to harmonize statements about God's hatred with those affirming His love.

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Michelle
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Re: God actively hates some of us ?

Post by Michelle » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:28 am

Hi Steve,

I'm not sure if your post is meant to be a correction of my little interpretation of David's psalm, but I don't think I disagree with what you are saying. Actually, I guess it's the same message Mark Driscoll was giving, except you come a little closer to saying, "hate the sin; love the sinner," which Driscoll pilloried. It makes Jesus' sacrifice all the more baffling and God's acceptance of us by grace all the more glorious, when you consider His hatred, or extreme dislike, for us.

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steve
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Re: God actively hates some of us ?

Post by steve » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:56 am

Hi Michelle,

No I was not countering your post. I think I was preparing mine offline before seeing your post. I don't see our posts being in disagreement with each other. Thanks for providing your comments. They are always good.

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