God actively hates some of us ?

[Michelle]

http://marshill.com/media/luke/jesus-sweats-blood

It's a little long...he starts telling people that God hates them at around 42:45

[backwoodsman]

He says "Some of you" a number of times. It seems to me he's trying to get through to those who "just don't get it" and think they're going to heaven because they go to church every Sunday. Much as it pains me to say anything complimentary about a megachurch, I'm pleasantly surprised to see such pointed, Biblical talk (at least, the small part of the sermon that I listened to) coming from one.

That said, I've never heard of the guy before and know nothing about him except the 15 or so minutes I listened to. So I could easily be misinterpreting something that would be clearer if I knew more about him or his theology.

[TK]

When I saw that the speaker was out of Mars Hill I assumed it was Rob Bell's church-- which is also Mars Hill. Of course they are two obviously very different churches.

I don't know-- I found him a little irritating. I can't imagine Jesus telling anyone that the Father "hated" them. If I had to hear this very often I couldn't stick around.

TK

[TK]

From Jonathan Edwards' sermon:

They are now the objects of that very same anger and wrath of God, that is expressed in the torments of hell. And the reason why they do not go down to hell at each moment, is not because God, in whose power they are, is not then very angry with them; as he is with many miserable creatures now tormented in hell, who there feel and bear the fierceness of his wrath. Yea, God is a great deal more angry with great numbers that are now on earth: yea, doubtless, with many that are now in this congregation, who it may be are at ease, than he is with many of those who are now in the flames of hell.

So that it is not because God is unmindful of their wickedness, and does not resent it, that he does not let loose his hand and cut them off. God is not altogether such an one as themselves, though they may imagine him to be so. The wrath of God burns against them, their damnation does not slumber; the pit is prepared, the fire is made ready, the furnace is now hot, ready to receive them; the flames do now rage and glow. The glittering sword is whet, and held over them, and the pit hath opened its mouth under them.
********************
The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.

O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you, as against many of the damned in hell. You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any Mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment.

It seems as if the speaker in the clip has been reading his Edwards.

TK

[steve]

Like Edwards (but unlike Rob Bell), Mark Driscoll is a staunch Calvinist.

It is not entirely surprising to hear such statements from that sector, since they never claimed that God loves, or wishes to save, everybody. If He doesn't want to save someone (and wants them, instead, to be tormented forever) what is more sensible than to say that God hates them? What other conclusion could the premises support?

I am not surprised to hear this view from Calvinists. What surprises me is that there are Calvinists. Their "god" (as described by them) differs little from the Muslim's Allah, except that the former has three persons—one of whom, at least, is not a monster.

It would seem an ironic, but consistent, scenario in the future, to see Calvinists and Muslims join forces against those who believe the Gospel about a God who loves the world and sent His Son to save it.

[darinhouston]

Thanks -- this is pretty standard fare for these guys -- at the risk of hijacking this (please don't) into a discussion of the messenger/movement, I have to say I think Driscoll is in many ways much more damaging than Bell -- he is a cultural icon among the younger folk and is at the forefront of the "Emergent" (or Emerging) movement -- ironically, I have to admit I actually have the Mars Hill iPhone app on my phone (but mostly because I've been thinking of creating something like it for TNP media and have just been playing with it).

Great quote re Psalm 5:5: "You can find a Christian on the run when they start to do word studies." (I guess he'd say the same for folks trying to place a passage in context).

His more specific points are great and are shared between most of us, I suppose -- he just has to carry it further into territories that are controversial and divisive. The points do not depend on God's hatred of the individual, so I don't understand why they must make that the main point?

[Homer]

I am not surprised to hear this view from Calvinists. What surprises me is that there are Calvinists. Their "god" (as described by them) differs little from the Muslim's Allah, except that the former has three persons—one of whom, at least, is not a monster.

It would seem an ironic, but consistent, scenario in the future, to see Calvinists and Muslims join forces against those who believe the Gospel about a God who loves the world and sent His Son to save it.

So are Calvinists Christians or no?

[TK]

Homer wrote:

So are Calvinists Christians or no?

In my younger days I guess I was a calvinist because that is all I knew. I grew up in a Baptist church, but they never called it Calvinism, and they never taught the 5 points. I am pretty sure I was a Christian.

I am sure many calvinists are Christians, as are many URists, charismatics, etc.

MacArthur, David Jeremiah and Alistair Begg are popular teachers who are Calvinists but they arent nasty about it.

This guy on the video seems to take special glee in being nasty about it, like it's "cool" or something.

I am not sure how i could sleep at night if I went around telling people that a God whose main attribute is love really hates them, in His heart of hearts.

TK

[darinhouston]

I guess I've heard some pretty ugly stuff from MacArthur too. Not to mention Piper. Now, back to our program....

[RICHinCHRIST]

I am not surprised to hear this view from Calvinists. What surprises me is that there are Calvinists. Their "god" (as described by them) differs little from the Muslim's Allah, except that the former has three persons—one of whom, at least, is not a monster.

My boss at one of my jobs is a muslim from Egypt. We discuss things often. A couple weeks ago I heard him describing what he believes and I thought, "Oh my gosh, he's a Calvinist! AHHHH!!! "