Getting An Instant Second Opinion From Our Heavenly Father

[backwoodsman]

As the originator of this thread and as one who has deeply wrestled with its theme, I have boldly taken the lead position as an authoritative moderator (as a teacher would), because I intimately know the theme and because I am passionately determined to ensure that this thread does not become sidetracked or derailed by peripheral distractions.

Ralph,

Two of us have raised valid questions and concerns based not on failure to comprehend, but on either Scripture, or principle, or both. Such things are not peripheral distractions, but rather are primary requirements if we as believers are to fulfill our duty not to be sidetracked or derailed from sound doctrine.

On the surface, the failure in Eden appears to be about disobeying a rule. It is not about that. It is about lack of relationship. The eating rule was broken in Eden because a close relationship was lacking.

Adam and Eve had a relationship with God, the nature and closeness of which we can barely begin to imagine, much less experience, in this life. It didn't stop them from making a conscious choice to disobey God. It seems foolhardy, at best, to imagine that we can overcome temptation and sin by having a closer relationship with God than they had. Such ideas only set people up for failure and disillusionment with spiritual things.

Consider Adam and Eve in Eden. Consider Joseph during his temptations and trials in Egypt. Consider Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego during their trials in Babylon. Consider King David during his trials with Bathsheba and Uriah. Which of these people triumphed. Why did they triumph? Why did the others not triumph? The answer lies in relationship.

Your examples disprove your point. Of one thing we can be absolutely certain: Everything God thought it important for us to know about these people is clearly recorded in Scripture. So, what's recorded? Those who triumphed, triumphed because they chose to do what they knew was right, and chose to stand firm in that decision regardless of the cost. Hebrews 11 puts it even more simply: BY FAITH. Those who failed, failed because they deliberately chose to disobey God's clear commandment and do what they knew was wrong.

Relationship with God is at the very core of everything it means to follow Jesus, and must always be our primary focus. But there's no hint in Scripture of your ideas, and they contradict what is there about temptation and sin. Of course, if we "go below the surface of the text," as you put it, we can pull anything we like out of a hat, and no one can object because doing so makes them, by definition, less spiritual and unable to understand the "deep" things we've discovered. But if what we think we see "below the surface" disagrees with what's on the surface for all to see, then we can be sure it wasn't God who revealed it to us.

Ralph, I've stuck with this thread so long because I wanted (a) to try to get you to consider and respond to the concerns that have been raised, and (b) to put on record that there are valid, unanswered objections, for the sake of any who might read this thread. (A) has so far been a lost cause, and (b) has, I think, been adequately accomplished. So absent a more substantial response from you, I think I probably won't bother you here any further. But I still hope you do consider and respond.

[Ralph]

Backwoodsman,

I have noted your concerns. We clearly disagree about some fundamental Scriptural issues. I will explain.

There is no indication in the Biblical text that either Eve or Adam ran to the arms of their Father for refuge and strength, or even felt the need to do that. There is no indication that Eve called out to her Father during the temptation or after she was tempted, or even felt the need to do that. There is no indication that Adam called out to his Father after Eve told him about her eating idea, or even felt the need to do that.

Therefore, it is illogical and incorrect to say that Adam and Eve’s relationship with their Father in Eden was close.

Believers today who are having close, abiding relationships with their Heavenly Father regularly talk with Him and they more and more desire to continue doing so in order to continually receive His strength and wisdom in every situation.

Adam was not directly tempted by the tempter, so his situation was quite different from Eve‘s situation. There was opportunity for Adam to call out to his Father and discuss the situation with Him after Eve told him about her eating idea. The only thing Adam had to deal with was his wife’s persuasiveness. The tempter was not directly involved with Adam. This is a very important point.

If Adam’s relationship with his Father was really close (abiding), then it would have been simple for Adam to call out to His Father and say something like:
“Father, Eve is trying to convince me that she and I should eat from the forbidden tree, so I desperately need your help here. Eve is being very persuasive. That’s the way she is. Please come and speak to Eve directly about this issue and tell her what you told me about the tree. She wants to do something that is wrong, and I don‘t want that to happen. I desperately need your help with this predicament that I‘m in with my wife. I can’t handle this by myself. I feel like I’m going to cave in to her persuasiveness. I need your wisdom and strength in this matter.”

Again it must be stressed that Adam was not directly tempted by the tempter. He was dealing only with Eve’s persuasiveness.

Any believing husband today who doesn’t go straight to his Heavenly Father in prayer in a situation similar to Adam’s situation is not in a close, abiding relationship with Jesus. He is in deep trouble.

Believers in Jesus Christ have been reborn and have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. Those who are abiding in Him --- trusting and clinging to and relying on Him --- will run to the arms of their Heavenly Father for refuge and strength. That is the only way for them to triumph. A believer needs the Lord’s continual strengthening. Every believer must eventually learn to continually take refuge in Him.

John 15 (RSV):
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

1 Corinthians 10 (RSV):
12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

The difference between our viewpoints is the difference between the law and the gospel.

Your position is based upon the law. My position is based upon the gospel.

The gulf between the law and the gospel is very wide.

That is why we do not agree.

Your view is that an individual keeps the rules through the strength and willpower of the individual.

My view is that an individual cannot do the will of God without the continual strengthening of the Lord, which is accessible only by being in close relationship with Him --- by abiding in Him.

Those who triumph do so because of a close, abiding relationship with the Lord. Their close, abiding relationship with the Lord is what allows them to do His will. Without an abiding relationship with Him, they cannot do anything, as Jesus said.

I rest my case.

Peace be to you always. I know that you are frustrated, but the Lord’s patience is great. Hang in there. There is light at the end of the tunnel, even if it is very dim at this point in time.

[backwoodsman]

Your view is that an individual keeps the rules through the strength and willpower of the individual.
[...]
I know that you are frustrated

Ralph,

I'd like to point out something I hope you'll find helpful: The above two statements could not be further from the truth. I don't know whether you'd say God revealed these things to you, or if they're simply what you think you've perceived; the important thing is, whatever the source, it's misled you. I hope you can see past your low opinion of my spirituality, and use this to help sort out where your thinking has gone off track.

My view is that an individual cannot do the will of God without the continual strengthening of the Lord, which is accessible only by being in close relationship with Him --- by abiding in Him.

This, of course, is thoroughly Biblical, and I agree completely.

So you see, you've completely misunderstood where and why we disagree. We're actually very close where you think there's a very wide gulf. If you'd like me to explain, you need only ask; but please don't ask unless you're truly willing to humbly listen and consider, rather than merely noting my concerns and assuming them to be wrong, because it'll only waste both your time and mine.

[Ralph]

Backwoodsman,

Thank you for writing. With better communication, we might now be able to converge on the truth about this crucial topic and other associated topics. I look forward to it.

Peace be to you always. I continue to ask the Lord to bless you in specific ways, even though I often firmly disagree with what you write.

I understand your passion for handling the Scriptures properly. You have made that clear in the past. On the other hand, there may be some old understandings of Scripture that are wrong and that need to be discarded. The Scriptures are alive. They are as alive as God Himself is alive. The Scriptures are not wooden, dead text on a page. We are expected to meditate on them (Psalm 1) and let God speak to us while we stay within the bounds of orthodoxy. We both know examples of people who even today have wandered far outside the bounds of orthodoxy. Your grave concerns in this regard are well-founded.

Your disagreements with what I have written have been continuous and firm. I have consistently met firmness with firmness only in order to maintain balance, so that the theme of this thread would not get lost. That was only fair. I have been extremely bold, as you have been.

The theme of this thread has been constant and has been re-stated repeatedly throughout this thread. Since you rarely, if ever, overtly agreed with me on anything, I could only conclude that you were disagreeing with everything that I had ever written. I honestly could not understand how you could repeatedly disagree with the concept of drawing near to the Lord to appropriate His strength and wisdom in times of temptations and other trials and the concept of selflessly praying for other people, which comprise the theme of this thread. Both concepts are thoroughly Scriptural and essential parts of the believer’s life.

I cannot read your mind. My responses have consistently been based on the actual words that you wrote to me. For a long time, I believed that you didn’t understand what I had written, but on 2/2/12, you stated that you did understand. So then I decided to flush out the reasons for our disagreements --- to get you to tell me what you actually believe --- to bring things into clear view. I purposely forced you to re-evaluate your position in the light of Scriptural facts. That was only fair.

Here is what you wrote on 2/2/12:

“Adam and Eve had a relationship with God, the nature and closeness of which we can barely begin to imagine, much less experience, in this life. It didn't stop them from making a conscious choice to disobey God. It seems foolhardy, at best, to imagine that we can overcome temptation and sin by having a closer relationship with God than they had. Such ideas only set people up for failure and disillusionment with spiritual things.”

You wrote your statement (above) in direct response to my earlier statement with which you were pointedly disagreeing. Therefore, I fairly concluded that you did not agree with what I had already written.

I disagreed with at least part your statement (above), and I explained my disagreements in my post of 2/3/12. It was only fair for me to do so. Adam and Eve failed because they did not draw near to God to receive His strength and wisdom in their time of need. They did not call out to Him. Their relationship with the Lord was not an abiding relationship. They had never before failed, so they didn’t know how weak they were without having the Lord alongside them. They had to learn that lesson, as we do also. The problem was a relationship problem. God wanted a close relationship with them, but the testing in Eden proved that the relationship was not close. People who have close relationships with the Lord do not ignore Him like Adam and Eve did. God promised to remedy the relationship problem by sending a Savior, and the existence of that promise then caused some people to hope in the Lord and trust in Him. Among those people who hoped and trusted in Him were Enoch and Noah. When they drew near to the Lord, they received His strength and wisdom. They had no strength and wisdom of their own to live righteously. They had the same weak flesh as Adam and Eve.

Here is what you wrote on 2/2/12:

“Those who triumphed, triumphed because they chose to do what they knew was right, and chose to stand firm in that decision regardless of the cost. Hebrews 11 puts it even more simply: BY FAITH. Those who failed, failed because they deliberately chose to disobey God's clear commandment and do what they knew was wrong.”

You wrote your statement (above) in direct response to my earlier statement with which you were pointedly disagreeing. Therefore, I fairly concluded that you did not agree with what I had already written.

I disagree with your statement (above), and I explained my disagreements in my post of 2/3/12. Those who triumphed did so because of their close relationship with the Lord, who gave them His strength and wisdom. It was not because they had the personal inner strength to choose correctly. Noah triumphed because he walked with God and received His strength and wisdom. It wasn’t because of Noah’s inner strength to choose correctly. No human being has that kind of inner strength without the Lord alongside or within. James wrote that God draws near to us when we draw near to Him. It is all about relationship. The people who triumphed in the Old Testament did so because they received the Lord’s strength and wisdom through their close relationship with Him. When God was with them, they triumphed like Joseph in Egypt did. Joseph had no personal inner strength or wisdom of his own. The same was true of Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in Babylon.

The last paragraph of your post on 2/2/12 was a clear expression of your frustration (or exasperation) with my bold persistence. It sounded to me like you were almost ready to quit this discussion. I wasn’t going to quit, so I wrote a reply that would make you tell me what you really believe --- to bring everything into clear view. I forced you to re-evaluate your position in the light of Scriptural facts. That was only fair.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

A brief comparison of the behavior of Adam in the garden of Eden and the behavior of Jesus Christ (the second Adam) in the garden of Gethsemane was given in the opening paragraphs of the very first post in this thread.

A more complete comparison follows.

The decision facing Adam in the garden of Eden was different from the decision facing Jesus Christ in the garden of Gethsemane, but both decisions were monumental. Both decisions were about doing the Father’s will.

Adam already knew his Father’s will, and Jesus Christ already knew His Father’s will.

Adam did not pray, but Jesus Christ did.

Adam did not draw near to his Father, but Jesus Christ did.

Adam did not receive strength and wisdom from his Father, but Jesus Christ did.

Adam failed, but Jesus Christ triumphed.

The clear conclusion is that we must draw near to our heavenly Father like Jesus did in time of need.

Hebrews 4 (RSV):
14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Moreover, we should always selflessly pray for other people, including those times when we ourselves are in need. Selfless prayers for other people are consistent with loving our neighbors as ourselves. Selflessly praying for other people removes our attention from ourselves. It breaks the strangleholds of temptations that try to get us to have a pity party or otherwise to selfishly satisfy our own desires in unwise, unhealthy, ungodly ways. Selfless praying for other people is consistent with God’s will and it brings glory to Him. For example, if King David had drawn near to the Lord when he was tempted and if he had selflessly prayed for the Lord’s blessings to be bountifully poured out upon Bathsheba and Uriah in their marriage, everyone involved would have fared exceedingly better. But David did not do that, and the results were devastating.

At the end of Job’s terrible trials, he selflessly prayed for his friends. The apostles selflessly prayed for others. Without such praying for others, they could not have triumphed in the spreading of the gospel.

It is helpful to examine what is said about Enoch and Noah in Genesis.

Genesis 5 (RSV):
22 Enoch walked with God after the birth of Methuselah three hundred years, and had other sons and daughters. 23 Thus all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
Genesis 5 (Amplified):
22 Enoch walked [in habitual fellowship] with God after the birth of Methuselah 300 years, and had other sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were 365 years. 24 And Enoch walked [in habitual fellowship] with God; and he was not, for God took him [home with Him].

Genesis 6 (RSV):
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God.
Genesis 6 (Amplified):
8 But Noah found grace (favor) in the eyes of the Lord. 9 This is the history of the generations of Noah. Noah was a just and righteous man, blameless in his [evil] generation; Noah walked [in habitual fellowship] with God.

Both Enoch and Noah walked with God; but that was not said of Adam. Enoch and Noah had close personal relationships with God.

Our heavenly Father wants the same for us.

[Ralph]

Ian,

I thank you for your personalized comments that you posted on 2/1/12.

You wrote:

“I would be interested to learn more from you on this, especially concerning the practical, down-to-earth working out in your daily life. Plenty of "anecdotal" input regarding your own testimony in this respect would be especially welcome!”

Very soon afterward, I did compose some personal material to try to satisfy your request; but I did not insert that material into this thread, partly because such personal testimonial material about me really doesn’t belong here. Also, you don’t know me outside of what you can read in this forum, so you might find it difficult to believe my words with much confidence, even though my words would be as true as I could write them. If you now still want me to submit some personal material for you to read, I could insert that elsewhere in this forum in a new thread. Please let me know. Your wishes might have changed since 2/1/12.

Within about the last week, I re-read TRAMP FOR THE LORD (Copyright 1974, BR1725.T35A37, ISBN 0-8007-0665-X, ISBN 0-8007-0769-9 qpb), one of Corrie Ten Boom‘s books. I first read it in the late 1970’s or early 1980‘s. That book contains tremendously-helpful material from an eminently-believable person. If you read Corrie‘s story, you will find many practical examples of what I have stated in this thread, and much more. Some of it may make you weep. My testimony would not be nearly as believable to you as Corrie‘s published testimony.

Peace be to you always.

[Ian]

Hi Ralph,

I would be interested to read about your personal experiences, here or in another thread.I understand your reluctance to jump in and share them to all and sundry on a forum. We`re told to "test all thngs" but I for one am not naturally sceptical.

[Haole]

Ralph's post rings true to me. The more we pray, the more we are close to God. If we draw close to him he will draw close to us. If we are close to him and he is close to us, we find it exceedingly difficult to let tempting thoghts go very far. We love the closeness and we don't want to grieve God with inappropriate thoughts allowed to fester. It sort of goes along the lines of an earlier thought I had. We are tempted every day just like Adam and Eve were. We need to seek God to overcome those temptations. If we are close to God, and he to us, it would take an active "act" (for lack of a better term) to get some distance from God in order to allow ourselves a moment to indulge. This act of distancing is too ominous for us to allow ourselves to do, inasmuch as God is talking to us the whole time we would be "distancing" ourselves from him. Once close, I find it almost impossible to desire anything that would create such seperation. Pray. Stay close. Pray some more.

[jeremiah]

right on man, thanks for the good words haole. <-----just curious about your name, are you out in hawaii?

grace and peace...

[Haole]

Vancouver, Washington...baby, where today the snow is teasing us.

-Kevin

[jeremiah]

oh ok, i lived on oahu when i was younger. haole is what they called white people over there. well it has some other connotations besides just pale. but i saw your name and it made me wonder.
grace and peace