SamIam,
Thank you for writing. It is apparent that you have chewed on these issues a bit. I appreciate every reply. My agreements and disagreements with what you last posted can be deduced by following the flow of thought in the material below.
Some of the following is new material, and some is older material that is being restated in fresh ways, for clarification and emphasis. Sometimes restatement in fresh ways is helpful. Although this material is long, I think is worth reading and pondering. These are deep topics that I cannot discuss briefly without making them falsely appear to be shallow and trivial. It is essential that we chew on this material until we understand the purpose of temptations and what we must do to fulfill that purpose. Floundering around during temptations is not what we should be doing. Such floundering has always abounded, but it should not.
---------- Regarding Adam and Eve ----------
When we read what God actually spoke to Adam and Eve individually after the fall, we learn His view. It appears that Adam was held responsible, even though both of them had disobeyed what they individually understood to be God’s instruction.
It appears that neither of them understood the authority and power of their Father very well before the fall, but I think they understood those things better after they received correction and more nurturing. The same is true for us.
I believe that God held Adam responsible for their decision to eat because he was in charge of the final decision. He was older, more experienced in interacting with his Father, and had directly heard God’s instruction about the trees before Eve was created. Adam had a much stronger historical basis for trusting and knowing His Father than Eve did.
After Eve told Adam about her eating idea, Adam should have gone straight to his Father and talked with Him about it (presuming that Adam was able to call out to God and was accustomed to doing so for other matters in Eden). Failure to consult with God was Adam’s actual error. He was not strong enough to handle the whole situation on His own. He needed help, but I think he didn’t understand that in Eden. Similarly for us, it takes awhile until we understand our weakness and need for help.
Both Adam and Eve felt guilty after they ate, even before God called out to them. Their actions showed that they both knew they had disobeyed God. Eve could have benefited immensely by calling out to her Father at the onset of temptation (presuming that she was able to call out to her Father in Eden). However, she did not realize during the temptation that she was weak and needy. She learned that after she had failed the test.
Adam and Eve received instruction and correction from their Father who re-clothed them and continued to care for them, even outside of Eden. They had, together, failed the test; and they had come to realize their weakness and neediness. That realization was the desired, essential outcome from the failed test. The same is true for us.
---------- Regarding Temptations ----------
The idea of a “second opinion” in this thread is, for me, defined as going straight to our Father at the onset of temptation and seeking refuge in Him and talking with Him, as Jesus did, as opposed to forgetting about Him and floundering around and not seeking help and refuge from Him. It doesn’t matter whether we have God’s opinion or not before the temptation; if we don’t cling to Him, we will fail the test. The test is aimed at sending us into the arms of our Father for refuge. If we don’t do that, we haven’t yet learned the lesson that temptation is aimed to teach. Adam and Eve failed the test, because they had not yet learned to seek refuge in their Father‘s arms. If we think we can be successful lone rangers out on the plain where temptations abound, we are mistaken. Our lives are to be lived in fellowship with our Father, before and during and after temptations.
The idea of a “second opinion” is not essential for presenting the truths that are embedded within this thread, but it is a useful vehicle. If you don’t personally like the vehicle, you are free to ignore it; but the truth that you have chewed on as you were being carried along by the vehicle will be hard for you to ignore; so the vehicle has served its purpose, imperfect as it may be.
It is not important to me that anyone cares about the vehicle. It is only important to me that the vehicle carries embedded truth along with it, and that the reader thereby chews on that truth and moves nearer to the Lord and examines his or her life and ways of dealing with temptations. My task is to get people chewing.
This thread was launched because of the seed idea of “second opinion“ that occurred to me some months ago. Without that idea, this thread would not have existed and its embedded truth would not have been presented for readers to chew on. It is up to the reader to decide whether or not the chewing process moved him or her closer to the Lord.
Teachers use many vehicles to present truths in fresh ways. Some vehicles are good, and some are not so good; but if truth is conveyed and chewed on and maybe even swallowed, the teacher did not fail.
I find the idea of us weak and needy children of God seeking an instant second opinion from our Father at the onset of temptation to be very helpful. When we ask for a second opinion from our Father, we are revealing a willing heart attitude. We are conversing with Him rather than floundering by ourselves. We are overtly expressing dependence upon Him. That is what Adam and Eve had not yet learned to do before the test in Eden, so they failed the test.
If we do not take some overt action to move close to the Lord and cling to Him at the onset of temptation, we will be on our own and we will most assuredly fail.
The whole purpose of us being tested through temptation is to get us to move close to the Lord and receive His strength. He promises to provide to us a way of escape in every temptation. We will not take the way of escape that is offered if we are not open to asking for strength and wisdom from Him. If I am tempted and I refuse to move close to the Lord, I will fail. That is the lesson that temptations teach.
We must learn to use temptations profitably. We must instantly move close to the Lord and selflessly pray for others. That is the message of this thread.
This complete thread and the complete complementary thread, “Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden”, taken together, often address the problem of human weakness and failure to take a way of escape that God promises to provide at the moment of temptation. Taken together in their entireties, I believe the two threads provide a balanced view. As with most other writings, short extractions from these threads are typically not balanced. Only by considering all of what has been written in these threads will the balanced view be obtained.
These two threads, taken together, have often recommended to readers a way of escape at the moment of temptation. That way of escape is to pray for others, which is a selfless act that is consistent with God‘s will.
Temptations are attempts to get us to do something to feed our lust and pride --- specifically, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, the pride of life. Lust and pride do not need to be fed. They need to decline.
When temptations are about other people, these threads have recommended that readers ask God to pour out His goodness upon those people who are the subjects of the temptations. In doing so, readers will humbly prostate themselves before God, which is what God desires. God wants us to love the people who are the subjects of our temptations, rather than to use those people as objects to feed our lust and our pride.
Getting An Instant Second Opinion From Our Heavenly Father
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backwoodsman
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Re: Getting An Instant Second Opinion From Our Heavenly Father
Ralph,
If this "second opinion" idea helps you to overcome temptation, then I think it's a good thing for you, as long as you understand it in a scriptural context.
That said, you're making some very big assumptions, and bringing in some things the text simply doesn't say, some of them contrary to scripture. And then you're forming a doctrine around around these things. For example, you say, "Failure to consult with God was Adam’s actual error." That's not what the Bible says, either about Adam specifically or about why we sin in general. Eve may or may not have heard God's command first hand -- we really don't know -- but Adam definitely did. He _knew_ God's command, and he _chose_ to disobey anyway. Consulting with God at the moment of temptation may have made it easier to make the right choice if he was wavering, but even better would've been simply _choosing_ to do what he already knew was right.
We sin when we are, as James puts it, dragged away by our own lusts and enticed. The problem is not one of needing a better method to deal with temptation, but rather of needing more of God and the fruit of the Spirit in our lives. There is, it seems, and endless supply of things, some good, some not so good, to distract us from that.
If this "second opinion" idea helps you to overcome temptation, then I think it's a good thing for you, as long as you understand it in a scriptural context.
That said, you're making some very big assumptions, and bringing in some things the text simply doesn't say, some of them contrary to scripture. And then you're forming a doctrine around around these things. For example, you say, "Failure to consult with God was Adam’s actual error." That's not what the Bible says, either about Adam specifically or about why we sin in general. Eve may or may not have heard God's command first hand -- we really don't know -- but Adam definitely did. He _knew_ God's command, and he _chose_ to disobey anyway. Consulting with God at the moment of temptation may have made it easier to make the right choice if he was wavering, but even better would've been simply _choosing_ to do what he already knew was right.
We sin when we are, as James puts it, dragged away by our own lusts and enticed. The problem is not one of needing a better method to deal with temptation, but rather of needing more of God and the fruit of the Spirit in our lives. There is, it seems, and endless supply of things, some good, some not so good, to distract us from that.
Re: Getting An Instant Second Opinion From Our Heavenly Father
Backwoodsman,
I have read your comments and I do appreciate getting them. Others might have the same views as you, so this reply is for them also. I can see that you are being extremely cautious. That is not bad. I am going to be very candid but loving here, in reply to your latest post. I am going to be firm, as you were when you wrote your last post. Thank you for writing.
It is not clear to me that you had yet read my latest post when you wrote your own latest post. My latest post was written with as much clarity as I could produce at the time. Reading and pondering it carefully is essential if you are to correctly understand what I was communicating. I did not write it cursorily, and it should not be read cursorily. You should not jump to conclusions based on cursory readings of the material. These ideas are much deeper than that. You might not initially like the ideas, but you should understand them before you outright reject them as being dangerous or attempts at creating new doctrines. There might be much more truth there than you first thought. Please read carefully and always keep what I wrote in its context.
In my previous post, I explained what I believe to be the purpose of testing for us. I believe my explanations of the purpose of testing are entirely consistent with what we read in the Scriptures and with what we ourselves experience and with what other people experience.
I believe we are tested so that we will more and more learn to always draw near to the Lord. I believe that until we learn to cling to Jesus, we will not triumph. When Jesus asks us to believe in Him, He is asking us to trust and cling to and rely on Him, according to the Amplified translation. It is very clear what we are expected to do.
James 4 (RSV):
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you.
I believe God allows us to be tested so that we will learn to draw close to Him and so that we will more and more want to live close to Him. I view this as the process of sanctification. I believe we are to always find our refuge in Him. I think that is clear in the Scriptures. I made similar statements in my previous posts.
If you will, please explain what you understand to be the real purpose of temptation for us.
If you will, please similarly explain what you believe to be the real purpose of the temptations that Jesus experienced in the wilderness and in the garden of Gethsemane.
If you will, please explain specifically the errors that I made --- the things I said that are inconsistent with the Scriptures. Please enumerate them so that we can discuss them, if possible. Please carefully keep everything in its context.
Much (but not all) of what I presented was written as “I think” or “I believe”. I was careful to write that way, so that readers will understand that much of this material is only my view. In these forums, people regularly state their views. Everybody who knows what the Bible says understands when a statement is only an opinion. You do and I do.
The Genesis account of the fall of Adam and Eve is very short. It isn’t difficult to see which details I have filled in by making reasonable extrapolations and interpolations based upon my understanding of God’s character and mankind’s nature.
We can each read the account of the fall of Adam and Eve in Genesis in as many different orthodox Bible translations as we desire. I did that before I wrote my first post in this thread, and also while I was writing the first post. I think we can all largely agree about what the written account actually says without any extrapolations or interpolations.
There are very few details in the story of the fall of Adam and Eve and in many other stories in the Bible. We can go our entire lifetimes and remain content without pondering the stories any lower than the surface layer, if we choose to do that. That works for some people. That’s all that unbelievers are able to do --- stay on the surface. If we remain on the surface, we will never be able to honestly examine the nature of temptation, its purpose, why we yield to temptations, and how we are to correctly respond to temptations, as I have tried to do in these threads.
Similarly, there are many other important things that we will never discover and understand if we stay on the surface where unbelievers are forced to stay. We have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). We can go deeper than unbelievers --- much deeper --- without creating new doctrines or creating heresy.
From the Scriptures and from our own experience we grow to better understand human nature. Jesus completely understood human nature (John 2:25). Genesis and the rest of the Scriptures provide answers for many of our questions about human nature, if we are willing to go below the surface of the text.
I have attempted to get us to chew on those ideas in these posts, and I think the posts have been successful in getting us to chew. If you do not personally wish to chew in this way, that is O.K. Then you must be content with what is on the surface where unbelievers are forced to stay.
As I explained in my previous post, the concept of “second opinion” is only a vehicle in this thread. If you don’t like the vehicle, you can ignore it. The vehicle is only used to carry the message to the reader and to get the reader to chew on the material and examine old concepts, keep old concepts if they are correct, and discard old concepts if they are wrong. I don’t care at all if you don’t like the vehicle. If the vehicle got you to chew on the concepts, then the vehicle did its job. My job is to get you to chew.
God clearly explained to Adam what he did wrong. What Adam did outwardly was only the outward manifestation of the inward problem. The inward problem was that He failed to draw near to his Father. God didn’t need to explain that to us in the account of Adam and Eve. We know it experientially and from many Biblical accounts, such as the story of King David with Bathsheba and Uriah that I cited in an earlier post. It is crystal clear to me that David did not draw near to God when he was tempted. That was his error. That is the error that every person who succumbs to temptation makes. That is what I have stated in my posts. That is also the error that Adam and Eve made. God didn’t need to tell us that in Genesis. We know that. We have the mind of Christ, who understands everything about human nature, deep below the surface. He was one of us while He was on earth. He is also God.
Grace and peace be to you from our Lord Jesus Christ.
I have read your comments and I do appreciate getting them. Others might have the same views as you, so this reply is for them also. I can see that you are being extremely cautious. That is not bad. I am going to be very candid but loving here, in reply to your latest post. I am going to be firm, as you were when you wrote your last post. Thank you for writing.
It is not clear to me that you had yet read my latest post when you wrote your own latest post. My latest post was written with as much clarity as I could produce at the time. Reading and pondering it carefully is essential if you are to correctly understand what I was communicating. I did not write it cursorily, and it should not be read cursorily. You should not jump to conclusions based on cursory readings of the material. These ideas are much deeper than that. You might not initially like the ideas, but you should understand them before you outright reject them as being dangerous or attempts at creating new doctrines. There might be much more truth there than you first thought. Please read carefully and always keep what I wrote in its context.
In my previous post, I explained what I believe to be the purpose of testing for us. I believe my explanations of the purpose of testing are entirely consistent with what we read in the Scriptures and with what we ourselves experience and with what other people experience.
I believe we are tested so that we will more and more learn to always draw near to the Lord. I believe that until we learn to cling to Jesus, we will not triumph. When Jesus asks us to believe in Him, He is asking us to trust and cling to and rely on Him, according to the Amplified translation. It is very clear what we are expected to do.
James 4 (RSV):
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you.
I believe God allows us to be tested so that we will learn to draw close to Him and so that we will more and more want to live close to Him. I view this as the process of sanctification. I believe we are to always find our refuge in Him. I think that is clear in the Scriptures. I made similar statements in my previous posts.
If you will, please explain what you understand to be the real purpose of temptation for us.
If you will, please similarly explain what you believe to be the real purpose of the temptations that Jesus experienced in the wilderness and in the garden of Gethsemane.
If you will, please explain specifically the errors that I made --- the things I said that are inconsistent with the Scriptures. Please enumerate them so that we can discuss them, if possible. Please carefully keep everything in its context.
Much (but not all) of what I presented was written as “I think” or “I believe”. I was careful to write that way, so that readers will understand that much of this material is only my view. In these forums, people regularly state their views. Everybody who knows what the Bible says understands when a statement is only an opinion. You do and I do.
The Genesis account of the fall of Adam and Eve is very short. It isn’t difficult to see which details I have filled in by making reasonable extrapolations and interpolations based upon my understanding of God’s character and mankind’s nature.
We can each read the account of the fall of Adam and Eve in Genesis in as many different orthodox Bible translations as we desire. I did that before I wrote my first post in this thread, and also while I was writing the first post. I think we can all largely agree about what the written account actually says without any extrapolations or interpolations.
There are very few details in the story of the fall of Adam and Eve and in many other stories in the Bible. We can go our entire lifetimes and remain content without pondering the stories any lower than the surface layer, if we choose to do that. That works for some people. That’s all that unbelievers are able to do --- stay on the surface. If we remain on the surface, we will never be able to honestly examine the nature of temptation, its purpose, why we yield to temptations, and how we are to correctly respond to temptations, as I have tried to do in these threads.
Similarly, there are many other important things that we will never discover and understand if we stay on the surface where unbelievers are forced to stay. We have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). We can go deeper than unbelievers --- much deeper --- without creating new doctrines or creating heresy.
From the Scriptures and from our own experience we grow to better understand human nature. Jesus completely understood human nature (John 2:25). Genesis and the rest of the Scriptures provide answers for many of our questions about human nature, if we are willing to go below the surface of the text.
I have attempted to get us to chew on those ideas in these posts, and I think the posts have been successful in getting us to chew. If you do not personally wish to chew in this way, that is O.K. Then you must be content with what is on the surface where unbelievers are forced to stay.
As I explained in my previous post, the concept of “second opinion” is only a vehicle in this thread. If you don’t like the vehicle, you can ignore it. The vehicle is only used to carry the message to the reader and to get the reader to chew on the material and examine old concepts, keep old concepts if they are correct, and discard old concepts if they are wrong. I don’t care at all if you don’t like the vehicle. If the vehicle got you to chew on the concepts, then the vehicle did its job. My job is to get you to chew.
God clearly explained to Adam what he did wrong. What Adam did outwardly was only the outward manifestation of the inward problem. The inward problem was that He failed to draw near to his Father. God didn’t need to explain that to us in the account of Adam and Eve. We know it experientially and from many Biblical accounts, such as the story of King David with Bathsheba and Uriah that I cited in an earlier post. It is crystal clear to me that David did not draw near to God when he was tempted. That was his error. That is the error that every person who succumbs to temptation makes. That is what I have stated in my posts. That is also the error that Adam and Eve made. God didn’t need to tell us that in Genesis. We know that. We have the mind of Christ, who understands everything about human nature, deep below the surface. He was one of us while He was on earth. He is also God.
Grace and peace be to you from our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ralph
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backwoodsman
- Posts: 536
- Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:32 am
- Location: Not quite at the ends of the earth, but you can see it from here.
Re: Getting An Instant Second Opinion From Our Heavenly Father
Ralph,
I appreciate the humility that comes through in your writing.
It occurs to me as I write this: Are you saying that failure to consult God at the moment of temptation was Adam's sin, or simply that it would've made it easier to avoid sinning? If the latter, I think you'll find it could be said much more clearly with many fewer words.
I appreciate the humility that comes through in your writing.
I had not only read it, but quoted from it in my reply.Ralph wrote:It is not clear to me that you had yet read my latest post when you wrote your own latest post.
I'd prefer if you would respond to the one I've already mentioned, with your scriptural backing for it.If you will, please explain specifically the errors that I made --- the things I said that are inconsistent with the Scriptures.
True enough. But some have a tendency to go so far down a path of extrapolations and interpolations that they end up in a place that bears little or no resemblance to what scripture clearly states -- all the while believing they're on the path of some "deep" truth. So far, it seems to me this is what you're doing, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.We can go deeper than unbelievers --- much deeper --- without creating new doctrines or creating heresy.
Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting you, but the impression I get from this and several other things you've written is that you feel those who disagree with your conclusions, or how you reached them, are less spiritual and incapable of understanding the "deep" things you've explained. Regardless of whether that's true in a particular case, it's an unwise and dangerous assumption that leads to a very destructive trap that's difficult to escape.If you do not personally wish to chew in this way, that is O.K. Then you must be content with what is on the surface where unbelievers are forced to stay.
It occurs to me as I write this: Are you saying that failure to consult God at the moment of temptation was Adam's sin, or simply that it would've made it easier to avoid sinning? If the latter, I think you'll find it could be said much more clearly with many fewer words.
Re: Getting An Instant Second Opinion From Our Heavenly Father
Backwoodsman,
I recommend that you wrestle with and try to answer for yourself three questions:
1) What was the purpose of the temptation in Eden (i.e., what did it accomplish)?
2) What is the purpose of temptations for us (i.e., what do they accomplish)?
3) What was the purpose of the temptations that Jesus experienced for Himself (i.e., what did they accomplish)?
After you have wrestled with and answered those three questions for yourself, as I did, I think you will understand why I wrote these posts; and I think your objections to what I have written might largely disappear. This type of wrestling requires that we go below the surface of the text of Scripture, while considering the character of God and the nature of humankind.
This thread is different from many other threads in this forum in that it directly addresses spiritual warfare (submitting to God, resisting the tempter, drawing near to God, selflessly praying for other people). For that reason, I do not expect a smooth ride. I am not surprised that it brings out unbecoming behavior in both of us, even though I know that both of us want to and normally do behave otherwise. I am not your enemy and you are not my enemy. I have prayed for you repeatedly, anticipating that this would not be easy for either of us.
I might write more later to specifically answer your questions that you posed in your latest post. For now, this post must suffice.
What I believe about this topic has already been thoroughly written in this thread, starting at the beginning of this thread. The companion thread, “Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden”, is helpful in bringing overall balance.
My first three posts in this thread would have sufficed and I would have stopped writing if there had been no further comments from others indicating to me that more explanation was needed to overcome what I perceived to be misunderstandings.
For further pondering, below are some New Testament passages that speak about people “drawing near” to God. James urged us to draw near to God. Rather than using “draw near” as shown below, other translations sometimes use “come to”, “approach”, “come boldly to” and other variations. These passages might be helpful, and I simply provide them without comment.
The James 4 passage that was cited in previous posts is shown again at the bottom of this list.
Hebrews 4 (RSV):
14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 7 (RSV):
17 For it is witnessed of him,
“Thou art a priest for ever,
after the order of Melchizedek.” 18 On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Hebrews 7 (RSV):
23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. 25 Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Hebrews 10 (RSV):
1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices which are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered? If the worshipers had once been cleansed, they would no longer have any consciousness of sin. 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin year after year. 4 For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 10 (RSV):
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful;
Hebrews 11 (RSV):
6 And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
James 4 (RSV):
5 Or do you suppose it is in vain that the scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit which he has made to dwell in us”? 6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. 9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.
Peace be to you. Thank you for writing.
I recommend that you wrestle with and try to answer for yourself three questions:
1) What was the purpose of the temptation in Eden (i.e., what did it accomplish)?
2) What is the purpose of temptations for us (i.e., what do they accomplish)?
3) What was the purpose of the temptations that Jesus experienced for Himself (i.e., what did they accomplish)?
After you have wrestled with and answered those three questions for yourself, as I did, I think you will understand why I wrote these posts; and I think your objections to what I have written might largely disappear. This type of wrestling requires that we go below the surface of the text of Scripture, while considering the character of God and the nature of humankind.
This thread is different from many other threads in this forum in that it directly addresses spiritual warfare (submitting to God, resisting the tempter, drawing near to God, selflessly praying for other people). For that reason, I do not expect a smooth ride. I am not surprised that it brings out unbecoming behavior in both of us, even though I know that both of us want to and normally do behave otherwise. I am not your enemy and you are not my enemy. I have prayed for you repeatedly, anticipating that this would not be easy for either of us.
I might write more later to specifically answer your questions that you posed in your latest post. For now, this post must suffice.
What I believe about this topic has already been thoroughly written in this thread, starting at the beginning of this thread. The companion thread, “Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden”, is helpful in bringing overall balance.
My first three posts in this thread would have sufficed and I would have stopped writing if there had been no further comments from others indicating to me that more explanation was needed to overcome what I perceived to be misunderstandings.
For further pondering, below are some New Testament passages that speak about people “drawing near” to God. James urged us to draw near to God. Rather than using “draw near” as shown below, other translations sometimes use “come to”, “approach”, “come boldly to” and other variations. These passages might be helpful, and I simply provide them without comment.
The James 4 passage that was cited in previous posts is shown again at the bottom of this list.
Hebrews 4 (RSV):
14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 7 (RSV):
17 For it is witnessed of him,
“Thou art a priest for ever,
after the order of Melchizedek.” 18 On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Hebrews 7 (RSV):
23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. 25 Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Hebrews 10 (RSV):
1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices which are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered? If the worshipers had once been cleansed, they would no longer have any consciousness of sin. 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin year after year. 4 For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 10 (RSV):
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful;
Hebrews 11 (RSV):
6 And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
James 4 (RSV):
5 Or do you suppose it is in vain that the scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit which he has made to dwell in us”? 6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. 9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.
Peace be to you. Thank you for writing.
Ralph
Re: Getting An Instant Second Opinion From Our Heavenly Father
Jeremiah,
I now belatedly thank you for providing on 1/16/12 and 1/18/12 your supportive written understanding of what I had earlier written in this thread. I perceive you to be a very courageous and caring young person.
I now belatedly thank you for providing on 1/16/12 and 1/18/12 your supportive written understanding of what I had earlier written in this thread. I perceive you to be a very courageous and caring young person.
Ralph
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backwoodsman
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- Location: Not quite at the ends of the earth, but you can see it from here.
Re: Getting An Instant Second Opinion From Our Heavenly Father
Ralph,Ralph wrote:I recommend that you wrestle with and try to answer for yourself three questions:
The next step that's necessary before I can further consider your ideas, is answers to the questions and concerns I've already raised. They're simple things that would be best answered simply and concisely. If you find them difficult to answer, wisdom would suggest a very careful reconsideration of at least the points of difficulty, if not the whole system of thought. Feel free to answer at your convenience; then maybe we can go on from there.
Certainly there are deep things in the Bible that are impossible for unbelievers to understand, and difficult even for many believers, for lack of spiritual wisdom and maturity. But temptation and sin are among the simplest things in Scripture, easily understood by all, and best fought by the simplest of methods, which Scripture gives us very plainly. Not always easy, to be sure -- but simple, direct, and singularly effective. No one is well served by complicating such things.
Re: Getting An Instant Second Opinion From Our Heavenly Father
This is a general post to all readers of this thread. It is not a reply to anyone in particular.
This thread has always been about spiritual warfare, even though I have not described it that way until recently.
Ephesians 6 (RSV):
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; 16 besides all these, taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that utterance may be given me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.
As the originator of this thread and as one who has deeply wrestled with its theme, I have boldly taken the lead position as an authoritative moderator (as a teacher would), because I intimately know the theme and because I am passionately determined to ensure that this thread does not become sidetracked or derailed by peripheral distractions.
(In contrast, whenever I post a comment in this forum in another thread that I did not personally originate, I do not take the same authoritative stance, because then I do not feel passionately responsible to keep the thread on track.)
Whenever I have perceived that sidetracking or derailment of this thread is imminent, I have passionately sought to bring this thread back to consideration of its central point (its theme). Derailment is completely unacceptable for this crucial topic that involves spiritual warfare.
As the originator of this thread, I have continuously assessed whether or not the theme of this thread has been comprehended by those readers who have responded in writing. Whenever I have perceived that there has been incomplete comprehension, I have tried to re-state the theme in fresh ways that might lead to better comprehension.
There is one participant in this forum who typically graciously writes “grace and peace” as a benediction of blessing at the end of his posts. In doing that, I believe he is genuinely conveying, “Even though I may not completely agree with your views, and even though I have not written perfectly, I assure you that I want the Lord’s grace and peace to be given to you.”
Similarly, whenever I personally have written a benediction of blessing at the end of my posts, I have genuinely conveyed this meaning: “Even though I may have firm disagreements with your views, and even though the tone and the content of my writing are imperfect, I assure you that I want the Lord’s blessings to be given to you.”
By writing a benediction of blessing, I am also committing myself to actually pray for the Lord’s goodness to be given to the person and to ask the Lord to bring my own heart attitudes into conformity with the message of the benediction of blessing --- if my heart attitudes at that point are lagging behind. The benediction is a seal of commitment for me.
Throughout life, I am continually needing to ask the Lord to break me, to bust me, so that pride does not rear its ugly head and obscure what I am saying or writing; but pride does sometimes rear its ugly head anyway. I am sorry that other people are sometimes wounded by what I speak and write. Wounding other people is not what I want. Paul wrote about his own failures in Romans 7.
We are immersed in spiritual warfare. I am acutely aware of that. We are not strong by ourselves. We are strong only in the Lord. He wants us to have a close relationship with Him, so that He can strengthen us, so that we can triumph.
The gospel, the good news, is about having an abiding relationship with the Lord. It is not about rules. On the surface, the failure in Eden appears to be about disobeying a rule. It is not about that. It is about lack of relationship. The eating rule was broken in Eden because a close relationship was lacking. A trusting, abiding relationship is what God wanted between Adam and Eve and Himself.
Eve would have triumphed over temptation only if she had clung to her Father when she was tempted. She was, by herself, no match for the tempter. Adam would have triumphed only if he had clung to his Father. That is the only way we triumph. When we outwardly disobey, as Adam and Eve did, that is only the outward manifestation of the inward problem. The inward problem is lack of a close relationship, failure to draw near, failure to cling.
Colossians 2:
20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the universe, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations, 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things which all perish as they are used), according to human precepts and doctrines? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh.
Hebrews 4 (RSV):
14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
James 4 (RSV):
5 Or do you suppose it is in vain that the scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit which he has made to dwell in us”? 6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. 9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.
When I am tempted or otherwise tested, I must flee for refuge to the Lord. I must jump into the arms of my Heavenly Father. I must trust and cling to and rely on Jesus. By myself, I am no match for the tempter.
In Josh McDowell’s book, MORE THAN A CARPENTER, is a list of the apostles who died as martyrs by sword, spear-thrust, stoning, arrows, or crucifixion. John is the only one listed who did not die as a martyr. I have pondered how the apostles went to their deaths.
I have pondered how parents and children died in the arena, being eaten by wild beasts or otherwise murdered. I have pondered how people died as human torches in Nero’s gardens.
I think they jumped into the arms of their Heavenly Father who strengthened them. I think they continued to intimately talk with Him. I think they continued to trust and cling to and rely on Jesus. I think they selflessly prayed for other people, as Jesus had done.
I have pondered whether those martyrs died like Jesus did, praying, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” I have pondered whether those martyrs died while praying for their oppressors and executioners and for the spectators in the seating areas of the arena. I think they did pray for other people, even their enemies, as Jesus did. That is the way we triumph, by selflessly praying for and serving other people.
I have wondered what would happen if we, by example, would consistently teach children to always instantly jump into the arms of their heavenly Father for refuge --- and to always instantly cling to Jesus, in all temptations and in all other trials. I have wondered what would happen if we, by example, would consistently teach children to always, during temptations and during all other trials, instantly and selflessly pray for other people that the Lord brings to mind --- and my personal experience is that He does consistently bring other people to mind so that I can pray for them.
Instantly drawing near to and clinging to the Lord and talking with Him, and instantly and selflessly praying for other people at the onset of temptations has been the constant theme of this thread.
Consider Adam and Eve in Eden. Consider Joseph during his temptations and trials in Egypt. Consider Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego during their trials in Babylon. Consider King David during his trials with Bathsheba and Uriah. Which of these people triumphed. Why did they triumph? Why did the others not triumph? The answer lies in relationship.
Now, what will we do?
This thread has always been about spiritual warfare, even though I have not described it that way until recently.
Ephesians 6 (RSV):
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; 16 besides all these, taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that utterance may be given me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.
As the originator of this thread and as one who has deeply wrestled with its theme, I have boldly taken the lead position as an authoritative moderator (as a teacher would), because I intimately know the theme and because I am passionately determined to ensure that this thread does not become sidetracked or derailed by peripheral distractions.
(In contrast, whenever I post a comment in this forum in another thread that I did not personally originate, I do not take the same authoritative stance, because then I do not feel passionately responsible to keep the thread on track.)
Whenever I have perceived that sidetracking or derailment of this thread is imminent, I have passionately sought to bring this thread back to consideration of its central point (its theme). Derailment is completely unacceptable for this crucial topic that involves spiritual warfare.
As the originator of this thread, I have continuously assessed whether or not the theme of this thread has been comprehended by those readers who have responded in writing. Whenever I have perceived that there has been incomplete comprehension, I have tried to re-state the theme in fresh ways that might lead to better comprehension.
There is one participant in this forum who typically graciously writes “grace and peace” as a benediction of blessing at the end of his posts. In doing that, I believe he is genuinely conveying, “Even though I may not completely agree with your views, and even though I have not written perfectly, I assure you that I want the Lord’s grace and peace to be given to you.”
Similarly, whenever I personally have written a benediction of blessing at the end of my posts, I have genuinely conveyed this meaning: “Even though I may have firm disagreements with your views, and even though the tone and the content of my writing are imperfect, I assure you that I want the Lord’s blessings to be given to you.”
By writing a benediction of blessing, I am also committing myself to actually pray for the Lord’s goodness to be given to the person and to ask the Lord to bring my own heart attitudes into conformity with the message of the benediction of blessing --- if my heart attitudes at that point are lagging behind. The benediction is a seal of commitment for me.
Throughout life, I am continually needing to ask the Lord to break me, to bust me, so that pride does not rear its ugly head and obscure what I am saying or writing; but pride does sometimes rear its ugly head anyway. I am sorry that other people are sometimes wounded by what I speak and write. Wounding other people is not what I want. Paul wrote about his own failures in Romans 7.
We are immersed in spiritual warfare. I am acutely aware of that. We are not strong by ourselves. We are strong only in the Lord. He wants us to have a close relationship with Him, so that He can strengthen us, so that we can triumph.
The gospel, the good news, is about having an abiding relationship with the Lord. It is not about rules. On the surface, the failure in Eden appears to be about disobeying a rule. It is not about that. It is about lack of relationship. The eating rule was broken in Eden because a close relationship was lacking. A trusting, abiding relationship is what God wanted between Adam and Eve and Himself.
Eve would have triumphed over temptation only if she had clung to her Father when she was tempted. She was, by herself, no match for the tempter. Adam would have triumphed only if he had clung to his Father. That is the only way we triumph. When we outwardly disobey, as Adam and Eve did, that is only the outward manifestation of the inward problem. The inward problem is lack of a close relationship, failure to draw near, failure to cling.
Colossians 2:
20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the universe, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations, 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things which all perish as they are used), according to human precepts and doctrines? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh.
Hebrews 4 (RSV):
14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
James 4 (RSV):
5 Or do you suppose it is in vain that the scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit which he has made to dwell in us”? 6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. 9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.
When I am tempted or otherwise tested, I must flee for refuge to the Lord. I must jump into the arms of my Heavenly Father. I must trust and cling to and rely on Jesus. By myself, I am no match for the tempter.
In Josh McDowell’s book, MORE THAN A CARPENTER, is a list of the apostles who died as martyrs by sword, spear-thrust, stoning, arrows, or crucifixion. John is the only one listed who did not die as a martyr. I have pondered how the apostles went to their deaths.
I have pondered how parents and children died in the arena, being eaten by wild beasts or otherwise murdered. I have pondered how people died as human torches in Nero’s gardens.
I think they jumped into the arms of their Heavenly Father who strengthened them. I think they continued to intimately talk with Him. I think they continued to trust and cling to and rely on Jesus. I think they selflessly prayed for other people, as Jesus had done.
I have pondered whether those martyrs died like Jesus did, praying, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” I have pondered whether those martyrs died while praying for their oppressors and executioners and for the spectators in the seating areas of the arena. I think they did pray for other people, even their enemies, as Jesus did. That is the way we triumph, by selflessly praying for and serving other people.
I have wondered what would happen if we, by example, would consistently teach children to always instantly jump into the arms of their heavenly Father for refuge --- and to always instantly cling to Jesus, in all temptations and in all other trials. I have wondered what would happen if we, by example, would consistently teach children to always, during temptations and during all other trials, instantly and selflessly pray for other people that the Lord brings to mind --- and my personal experience is that He does consistently bring other people to mind so that I can pray for them.
Instantly drawing near to and clinging to the Lord and talking with Him, and instantly and selflessly praying for other people at the onset of temptations has been the constant theme of this thread.
Consider Adam and Eve in Eden. Consider Joseph during his temptations and trials in Egypt. Consider Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego during their trials in Babylon. Consider King David during his trials with Bathsheba and Uriah. Which of these people triumphed. Why did they triumph? Why did the others not triumph? The answer lies in relationship.
Now, what will we do?
Last edited by Ralph on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ralph
Re: Getting An Instant Second Opinion From Our Heavenly Father
Hi Ralph,
Thank you for your post, particularly this part:
I write this because so much of my faith is indeed about self-abasement and severity to the body, with only occasional flashes of awareness of the presence of God if I`m honest.
Thank you for your post, particularly this part:
I would be interested to learn more from you on this, especially concerning the practical, down-to-earth working out in your daily life. Plenty of "anecdotal" input regarding your own testimony in this respect would be especially welcome!The gospel, the good news, is about having an abiding relationship with the Lord. It is not about rules. On the surface, the failure in Eden appears to be about disobeying a rule. It is not about that. It is about lack of relationship. The eating rule was broken in Eden because a close relationship was lacking. A trusting, abiding relationship is what God wanted between Adam and Eve and Himself.
Eve would have triumphed over temptation only if she had clung to her Father when she was tempted. She was, by herself, no match for the tempter. Adam would have triumphed only if he had clung to his Father. That is the only way we triumph. When we outwardly disobey, as Adam and Eve did, that is only the outward manifestation of the inward problem. The inward problem is lack of a close relationship, failure to draw near, failure to cling.
Colossians 2:
20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the universe, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations, 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things which all perish as they are used), according to human precepts and doctrines? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh.
I write this because so much of my faith is indeed about self-abasement and severity to the body, with only occasional flashes of awareness of the presence of God if I`m honest.
Re: Getting An Instant Second Opinion From Our Heavenly Father
Backwoodsman,
I agree with what you wrote about simplicity. What appears in this thread from beginning to end --- about how we should deal with trials and temptations --- is simple. It is so simple that even a child can understand it. That simplicity emerged only after deep pondering of many Biblical texts for a very long time, and after a lifetime of living in this flesh, with all of my many failings.
If I were walking into the arena, with children and others, to be torn apart and eaten by wild beasts in the early years of persecution of the church after Jesus had ascended into heaven, here is what I would boldly keep saying to everybody around me, and I think the children would understand it:
“Dear children: Jump into the arms of your Heavenly Father. Hold on tight. Don’t let go. Talk to Him a lot. Don’t stop talking. Remember Jesus. Hold on to Jesus too. Don’t let go. Pray for us. Pray for other people too, like Jesus did. Keep praying. You will be O.K. in the arms of your Heavenly Father. We will see Jesus soon. We will see each other soon. I love you.”
Peace be to you always.
I agree with what you wrote about simplicity. What appears in this thread from beginning to end --- about how we should deal with trials and temptations --- is simple. It is so simple that even a child can understand it. That simplicity emerged only after deep pondering of many Biblical texts for a very long time, and after a lifetime of living in this flesh, with all of my many failings.
If I were walking into the arena, with children and others, to be torn apart and eaten by wild beasts in the early years of persecution of the church after Jesus had ascended into heaven, here is what I would boldly keep saying to everybody around me, and I think the children would understand it:
“Dear children: Jump into the arms of your Heavenly Father. Hold on tight. Don’t let go. Talk to Him a lot. Don’t stop talking. Remember Jesus. Hold on to Jesus too. Don’t let go. Pray for us. Pray for other people too, like Jesus did. Keep praying. You will be O.K. in the arms of your Heavenly Father. We will see Jesus soon. We will see each other soon. I love you.”
Peace be to you always.
Ralph