I had for a long time envisioned the events of the fall of Adam and Eve within the garden of Eden as all happening in rapid succession in the center of the garden alongside the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That simplified impression was probably formed after my viewings of various artists’ depictions of the scene in Eden. However, after considering how temptations and sins actually occur within humankind, my personal impression of the scene in Eden has been changed. Below are my current thoughts:
Consider the text from Genesis, chapter 2 and chapter 3.
Eve conversed alone with the tempter (3:1-4). Adam was not present to hear any of the conversation between Eve and the tempter. Adam was not directly tempted by the tempter.
I think the tempter chose to work on Eve while she was alone, because she had apparently not heard God’s warning directly from God Himself like Adam had (2:16-17) before Eve was created (2:22). Eve had apparently heard the warning about the forbidden tree second-hand, as passed down to her verbally from Adam (unless God spoke about it again later to both of them). For that reason, Eve may have been more easily persuaded by the tempter than Adam would have been. The crafty tempter skillfully picked his target. Adam might have been more difficult for the tempter to deceive, since God had warned Adam directly (2:16-17) about eating from the forbidden tree. When God warns a person directly, I think the impression is stronger than if another person conveys the warning.
Eve apparently understood a slightly-embellished warning about the tree in the middle of the garden (3:3). God had told Adam that he must not eat from the forbidden tree, but Eve additionally understood that she and Adam were also prohibited from even touching the tree. I don’t know the source of Eve’s embellishment about not touching the tree.
Both the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were in the middle of the garden (2:9), but Eve didn’t specifically mention the tree of life when talking to the tempter. She mentioned to the tempter only the forbidden tree in the middle of the garden (3:3), as if it were the only tree in the middle of the garden, and she didn‘t call it by its name (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil). It’s not clear that she even remembered about the tree of life also being there in the middle of the garden. I believe she knew about the tree of life in the middle of the garden, because she and Adam were allowed to eat from it. Perhaps she took it for granted. Her attention may have been focused only on the forbidden tree during the temptation. Perhaps she did not at that moment of temptation appreciate or remember the value of the tree of life. If so, I understand, because a common human failing is to forget God‘s goodness; and the tree of life was certainly a part of God‘s goodness to Adam and Eve. Both trees stood together in the middle of the garden. Eve perhaps forgot about God’s goodness and focused on what the tempter told her that God was deliberately withholding from her and Adam. If that’s what happened, I understand.
I don’t think that Eve was located alongside the forbidden tree in the middle of the garden when she was tempted. When speaking to the tempter, Eve referred to a forbidden tree in the middle of the garden (a tree that was apparently out of her sight at the moment; i.e., in 3:3, she did not refer to it as “this tree” but instead referred to it as if it were distant from her). Eve could have been located anywhere else in the garden during the temptation, which would require that she later deliberately walk with Adam to the forbidden tree in the center of the garden to inspect it. I think the nature of sin in humankind is that it is acted out after incubation (James 1:13-15). I think sin’s incubation in Eden took awhile after the temptation.
I don’t think the tempter was present when Eve actually ate from the tree. I think there was a period when Eve was pondering what to do after the temptation. I think Eve went to the tree to ponder the tree after she was tempted (3:6). I think that at the same time or at a later time, she took Adam along with her to the tree. I don’t think it happened quickly. It was a serious decision for Eve, and there was a firm warning from God that she had to deliberately ignore. I don’t think it was an easy decision.
Eve ate the fruit first, and then she gave some fruit to Adam, who then ate. The Genesis text appears to say that the eyes of Eve and Adam were opened simultaneously (3:7), although I would have expected Eve’s eyes to be opened first, because she ate first. If Eve’s eyes had been opened immediately after she ate, the text would have said so, and the outcome might have been different for Adam who could have avoided eating when he saw what happened after Eve ate. I think there was some delay after eating before their eyes were opened. There was pleasure for a season.
I think Eve may have needed to work for awhile to persuade Adam to eat the forbidden fruit (similar to the persuasion in the story of Delilah and Samson). Adam had heard the command about the forbidden tree directly from God, and I think it would have taken some persuading for him to ignore God‘s command. That is why, after the fall, God held Adam responsible for listening to the voice of Eve and for eating the forbidden fruit. Adam knew better. It was not wrong for Adam to physically listen to Eve; but after listening to her thoughts, he should have presented the issue directly to his Father for a final verdict on the matter. He did not consult his Father before acting. I think he was ultimately responsible for what he and Eve did.
I think Adam and Eve’s sin was so very serious because they did not discuss any of their fruit-eating plans with their Father. He was nearby, and they could have called out to Him to discuss their ideas. They did not trust Him enough to call out to Him. They failed to remember that God was their benevolent Father who cared deeply about their welfare. I think they broke their Father’s heart by ignoring Him.
Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World, has solved that broken-relationship problem for humankind. He has made it possible for us to have joyful fellowship with our Heavenly Father who has always loved us. He asks only that we trust and cling to and rely on Him.
Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden
Re: Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden
Ralph:
These are some interesting embellishments on the text.
What do you do with Genesis 6b: "She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it"?
These are some interesting embellishments on the text.
What do you do with Genesis 6b: "She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it"?
Re: Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden
Cheryl,
Adam was, indeed, with Eve when she ate the fruit, as the text indicates; but I think considerable incubation time elapsed between the temptation of Eve (during which she was alone) and the actual eating of the fruit by both Adam and Eve.
Eve needed to have time to ponder the temptation, and then she needed to have time to convince Adam to go along with her in what she had finally decided to do, because Adam hadn‘t personally been tempted. Adam needed to be talked into eating the forbidden fruit; and I think convincing Adam was not an easy task, because Adam knew better than to disobey his Father. God had personally told him what he must never do.
This temptation, which amounted to outright rebellion against God (with huge uncertainties and risks), required deep inward pondering before outward sin would finally be hatched. I don’t think this process was rapid. Eating was the outward manifestation of deliberate inward disregard of God’s instruction.
Later, after Adam and Eve had been removed from Eden, Cain (Genesis 4:3-8 … ) pondered his options for awhile before he actually murdered his brother, Abel. I don’t know how long it took for Cain’s sin to hatch, but it wasn’t instantaneous. The nature of sin is that it is incubated until it hatches.
We observe visible acts of sin that are committed in this world. Some of them surprise us. What we observe was hatched. It did not occur instantly. That is why it is crucial that we continue to trust, cling to and rely on our Lord Jesus Christ, so that we do not begin to incubate secret sins inside us that can hatch into outward sins.
Thank you for writing.
Adam was, indeed, with Eve when she ate the fruit, as the text indicates; but I think considerable incubation time elapsed between the temptation of Eve (during which she was alone) and the actual eating of the fruit by both Adam and Eve.
Eve needed to have time to ponder the temptation, and then she needed to have time to convince Adam to go along with her in what she had finally decided to do, because Adam hadn‘t personally been tempted. Adam needed to be talked into eating the forbidden fruit; and I think convincing Adam was not an easy task, because Adam knew better than to disobey his Father. God had personally told him what he must never do.
This temptation, which amounted to outright rebellion against God (with huge uncertainties and risks), required deep inward pondering before outward sin would finally be hatched. I don’t think this process was rapid. Eating was the outward manifestation of deliberate inward disregard of God’s instruction.
Later, after Adam and Eve had been removed from Eden, Cain (Genesis 4:3-8 … ) pondered his options for awhile before he actually murdered his brother, Abel. I don’t know how long it took for Cain’s sin to hatch, but it wasn’t instantaneous. The nature of sin is that it is incubated until it hatches.
We observe visible acts of sin that are committed in this world. Some of them surprise us. What we observe was hatched. It did not occur instantly. That is why it is crucial that we continue to trust, cling to and rely on our Lord Jesus Christ, so that we do not begin to incubate secret sins inside us that can hatch into outward sins.
Thank you for writing.
Ralph
Re: Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden
Hi Ralph,
I don't know if your description is correct or not, but it certainly seems to be a possibility, given the compressed nature of so many biblical narratives.
I don't know if your description is correct or not, but it certainly seems to be a possibility, given the compressed nature of so many biblical narratives.
Re: Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden
Steve, thank you for writing.
I add some later thoughts:
Some hours or days or weeks after Eve was tempted in the garden of Eden and after Eve had discussed the matter with Adam, they eventually stood together near the two trees that grew in the middle of the garden. The tree of life was nearby, and they were permitted to freely eat from it; and it would continue to benefit them and not harm them. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was also near them, and they were not permitted to eat anything from it; and God had clearly said that they would die if they ate its fruit; but maybe God had lied to them about the tree, and maybe they would greatly profit from eating its fruit. What should they do?
It is easy for me to look back in time and say that Adam and Eve should have cried out, “Father, save us! We need you! Help us! We are weak! Tell us again what you want us to do!” But I know assuredly that if I had been there in Eden in their time and place, I would have done the same thing that they did, because I am the same human flesh.
I think Adam and Eve didn’t understand how weak they were without the undergirding strength of their Father. Perhaps that is why Adam and Eve didn’t call out to their Father to strengthen them after Eve’s temptation. They had not yet been tested. They were unable to know how individually weak and needy they were until after they had failed the test --- until they had individually sinned. The same is true for us. Even though we have thousands of years of historical evidence of the disastrous effects of sin in the world, we are unable to experientially know how individually weak and needy we are until after we have individually failed the test --- until we have individually sinned.
We who trust and cling to and rely on Jesus Christ know how individually weak and needy we are. We have failed so many tests, and we don’t want to fail any more --- we are tired of sinning. We want to be saved from our sinful condition. We have reached a conclusion about our sinful condition like Isaiah did in the Old Testament.
Isaiah 6 (RSV):
1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim; each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.” 4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
6 Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.” 8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”
And we have reached a conclusion about our sinful condition like the tax collector did in Jesus’ parable in the New Testament.
Luke 18 (RSV):
9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
And we want to love.
1 John 4 (RSV):
7 Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God; for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
I add some later thoughts:
Some hours or days or weeks after Eve was tempted in the garden of Eden and after Eve had discussed the matter with Adam, they eventually stood together near the two trees that grew in the middle of the garden. The tree of life was nearby, and they were permitted to freely eat from it; and it would continue to benefit them and not harm them. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was also near them, and they were not permitted to eat anything from it; and God had clearly said that they would die if they ate its fruit; but maybe God had lied to them about the tree, and maybe they would greatly profit from eating its fruit. What should they do?
It is easy for me to look back in time and say that Adam and Eve should have cried out, “Father, save us! We need you! Help us! We are weak! Tell us again what you want us to do!” But I know assuredly that if I had been there in Eden in their time and place, I would have done the same thing that they did, because I am the same human flesh.
I think Adam and Eve didn’t understand how weak they were without the undergirding strength of their Father. Perhaps that is why Adam and Eve didn’t call out to their Father to strengthen them after Eve’s temptation. They had not yet been tested. They were unable to know how individually weak and needy they were until after they had failed the test --- until they had individually sinned. The same is true for us. Even though we have thousands of years of historical evidence of the disastrous effects of sin in the world, we are unable to experientially know how individually weak and needy we are until after we have individually failed the test --- until we have individually sinned.
We who trust and cling to and rely on Jesus Christ know how individually weak and needy we are. We have failed so many tests, and we don’t want to fail any more --- we are tired of sinning. We want to be saved from our sinful condition. We have reached a conclusion about our sinful condition like Isaiah did in the Old Testament.
Isaiah 6 (RSV):
1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim; each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.” 4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
6 Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.” 8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”
And we have reached a conclusion about our sinful condition like the tax collector did in Jesus’ parable in the New Testament.
Luke 18 (RSV):
9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
And we want to love.
1 John 4 (RSV):
7 Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God; for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
Ralph
Re: Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden
Ralph, you wrote:
Forgive me for diverting this thread, but if that is true (and I have often thought so), how can long-term punishment (ECT) possibly be morally justified?we are unable to experientially know how individually weak and needy we are until after we have individually failed the test --- until we have individually sinned.
Re: Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden
Ian,
In response to my statement:
“… we are unable to experientially know how individually weak and needy we are until after we have individually failed the test --- until we have individually sinned.”
You asked:
“Forgive me for diverting this thread, but if that is true (and I have often thought so), how can long-term punishment (ECT) possibly be morally justified?”
In my previous posts in other threads, I have shown a very-steep inclination toward the Christian UR view, so I can’t speak in support of the ECT view. I know the main points of the ET view, but I’m not sure whether ECT is synonymous with ET.
Here are some more of my thoughts, though, that might help to get us started in answering your question. I‘m just throwing out some material for you to chew on in the hope that it might help, since I’m not sure yet how to answer your question directly.
I think that after God clearly explained their specific errors to them after their fall, Adam and Eve for the first time understood that they were weak and needy. I think His provision of skins for them to replace their fig-leaf clothing also helped them to understand that they were weak and needy.
At that point, I think they were ready for a Savior; and in His explanations to them, God promised that He would provide a Savior.
At that point, I think Adam and Eve first knew that they needed to depend upon their Father, but it appears that people didn’t actually call out to the Lord (in prayer? in worship?) until the time of Enosh.
Genesis 4 (RSV):
25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth, for she said, “God has appointed for me another child instead of Abel, for Cain slew him.” 26 To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time men began to call upon the name of the LORD.
Genesis 4:26 might mean that God initiated all conversations with people before the time of Enosh, and thereafter people started praying to God on their own. It is not clear to me whether Adam and Eve ever initiated conversations with their Father when they were in Eden. Maybe God always spoke to them first, such as in Genesis 3 (RSV): 9 But the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” I had always believed that Adam and Eve could initiate conversations with their Father in Eden, but that might not be the way conversations occurred in Eden.
God certainly continued to take care of Adam and Eve after they left Eden, but His care was a different kind of care, because their awareness and surroundings and needs were different.
The lives of Abel and Enoch and Noah indicate that those men knew that they were individually weak and needy, which led to their dependence upon God. They pleased God.
In the years leading up to the flood, most people did not know that they were individually weak and needy, because they showed no dependence upon the Lord. Genesis 6 (RSV) 5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
The following statement possibly indicates salvation being offered to people who had lived at the time of the flood: 1 Peter 3 (RSV): 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
The following verses might also be of help for your original question regarding my statement and the ECT view:
James 4 (RSV):
17 Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
Romans 3 (RSV):
12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Romans 11 (RSV):
32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
Thank you for writing.
In response to my statement:
“… we are unable to experientially know how individually weak and needy we are until after we have individually failed the test --- until we have individually sinned.”
You asked:
“Forgive me for diverting this thread, but if that is true (and I have often thought so), how can long-term punishment (ECT) possibly be morally justified?”
In my previous posts in other threads, I have shown a very-steep inclination toward the Christian UR view, so I can’t speak in support of the ECT view. I know the main points of the ET view, but I’m not sure whether ECT is synonymous with ET.
Here are some more of my thoughts, though, that might help to get us started in answering your question. I‘m just throwing out some material for you to chew on in the hope that it might help, since I’m not sure yet how to answer your question directly.
I think that after God clearly explained their specific errors to them after their fall, Adam and Eve for the first time understood that they were weak and needy. I think His provision of skins for them to replace their fig-leaf clothing also helped them to understand that they were weak and needy.
At that point, I think they were ready for a Savior; and in His explanations to them, God promised that He would provide a Savior.
At that point, I think Adam and Eve first knew that they needed to depend upon their Father, but it appears that people didn’t actually call out to the Lord (in prayer? in worship?) until the time of Enosh.
Genesis 4 (RSV):
25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth, for she said, “God has appointed for me another child instead of Abel, for Cain slew him.” 26 To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time men began to call upon the name of the LORD.
Genesis 4:26 might mean that God initiated all conversations with people before the time of Enosh, and thereafter people started praying to God on their own. It is not clear to me whether Adam and Eve ever initiated conversations with their Father when they were in Eden. Maybe God always spoke to them first, such as in Genesis 3 (RSV): 9 But the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” I had always believed that Adam and Eve could initiate conversations with their Father in Eden, but that might not be the way conversations occurred in Eden.
God certainly continued to take care of Adam and Eve after they left Eden, but His care was a different kind of care, because their awareness and surroundings and needs were different.
The lives of Abel and Enoch and Noah indicate that those men knew that they were individually weak and needy, which led to their dependence upon God. They pleased God.
In the years leading up to the flood, most people did not know that they were individually weak and needy, because they showed no dependence upon the Lord. Genesis 6 (RSV) 5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
The following statement possibly indicates salvation being offered to people who had lived at the time of the flood: 1 Peter 3 (RSV): 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
The following verses might also be of help for your original question regarding my statement and the ECT view:
James 4 (RSV):
17 Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
Romans 3 (RSV):
12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Romans 11 (RSV):
32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
Thank you for writing.
Ralph
Re: Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden
I think Adam and Eve’s sin was so very serious because they did not discuss any of their fruit-eating plans with their Father. He was nearby, and they could have called out to Him to discuss their ideas. They did not trust Him enough to call out to Him. They failed to remember that God was their benevolent Father who cared deeply about their welfare. I think they broke their Father’s heart by ignoring Him.
I think that Eve had the elements of lust within her from her creation and Satan helped bring forth what was already in her. "When the women saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye , and also desirable for gaining wisdom she took some and ate it." Gen 3.6
So my question is , who put the elements of lust within Eve which 1 John 2.16 describes as the sins of the world. Another words Jesus described lusting as sin but how could Eve know that, since God only said not to eat from the tree. Based on the info of this episode there is no reason to believe that Eve knew that simply lusting after the tree is really sin.
Then the question is, that Eve having no knowledge that lusting is sin is further tempted by Satan, so who sent Satan to tempt Eve? Did Eve have any insight
into the nature of Satan? If Eve ate from the tree with no negative consequence and God created her to be with Adam i think it's understandable that Adam might conclude that if Eve was OK , then maybe it was now OK to eat from the tree. Granted they both sinned but i think God made them morally weak and God sent Satan into the garden to deceive Eve and God made Adam the same as Eve, full of pride, vanity and lust. So i don't think God was brokenhearted or surprised , in fact i think everything happened as it was meant to happen for a bigger purpose a greater good which is spiritual growth by ultimately overcoming evil.
I think that Eve had the elements of lust within her from her creation and Satan helped bring forth what was already in her. "When the women saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye , and also desirable for gaining wisdom she took some and ate it." Gen 3.6
So my question is , who put the elements of lust within Eve which 1 John 2.16 describes as the sins of the world. Another words Jesus described lusting as sin but how could Eve know that, since God only said not to eat from the tree. Based on the info of this episode there is no reason to believe that Eve knew that simply lusting after the tree is really sin.
Then the question is, that Eve having no knowledge that lusting is sin is further tempted by Satan, so who sent Satan to tempt Eve? Did Eve have any insight
into the nature of Satan? If Eve ate from the tree with no negative consequence and God created her to be with Adam i think it's understandable that Adam might conclude that if Eve was OK , then maybe it was now OK to eat from the tree. Granted they both sinned but i think God made them morally weak and God sent Satan into the garden to deceive Eve and God made Adam the same as Eve, full of pride, vanity and lust. So i don't think God was brokenhearted or surprised , in fact i think everything happened as it was meant to happen for a bigger purpose a greater good which is spiritual growth by ultimately overcoming evil.
Re: Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden
Steve7150,
Much supporting material appears in this thread following the early paragraph on which you have commented. That later material may be of help for your questions.
When considering the events of the fall of Adam and Eve in Eden, we must unreservedly ponder the depths our own human nature. We must unreservedly ponder the way in which temptation and sin actually operate within us.
We must consider what God thinks about disobedience. I believe He is grieved by it, even though He may not be surprised by it. Although even a human parent expects to see some disobedience in children, some types of disobedience can deeply grieve a parent.
We must also consider the specific words that God spoke to Adam and Eve after the fall. He clearly explained Adam’s error.
At the end of my previous post, I provided Romans 11:32 that may apply to Adam and Eve’s disobedience:
Romans 11 (RSV):
30 Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
I believe that after disobeying God’s instruction, and after hearing God‘s clear explanation of Adam’s error, and after cooperating with their Father in receiving an important change of clothing, Adam and Eve came to understand how weak and needy they were. I think that was the first time they felt weak and needy.
Feeling weak and needy after failure is a prerequisite for repentance and all subsequent obedience. I believe that Adam and Eve began to cling to their Lord after they had experientially learned that they would otherwise continue to fail. The same is true for us. We cling because we know that we will otherwise continue to fail.
Adam and Eve both failed their tests. They both disobeyed God’s clear instruction. Eve was talked into disobeying by listening to the tempter, and Adam was talked into disobeying by listening to (heeding) the words of his wife, who was mistaken. I believe that Adam sinned with his eyes wide open. When I look at these failures, I see that Adam was ultimately responsible. He knew better. He was older, and he had much accumulated fellowship experience with His Father before Eve was ever created. Adam had received instruction about the forbidden fruit directly from God before Eve was ever created.
They learned that Eve’s human strength was no match for the tempter‘s wiles. They learned that it was possible for Adam to be convinced by Eve to do something that was wrong, because in this case Eve was mistaken.
They learned that they were weak and in need of a Savior.
Those are the same lessons that we must learn.
I believe we are tested so that we will fail the test and thereby discover the Lord’s mercy and thereafter take refuge in Him. That appears to be what Paul was explaining in Romans 11:32.
Jesus Christ did not fail His own personal tests. He was already completely dependent upon His Heavenly Father before He was ever temped. He didn’t need to learn dependence through failure like we do. His complete dependence upon His Heavenly Father and deep communion with His Father was the reason that He never failed.
It is only by our complete dependence upon our Heavenly Father and deep communion with Him that we will continue to pass the test. We must continue to trust, cling to, and rely on Jesus Christ to do that.
Thank you for writing.
Much supporting material appears in this thread following the early paragraph on which you have commented. That later material may be of help for your questions.
When considering the events of the fall of Adam and Eve in Eden, we must unreservedly ponder the depths our own human nature. We must unreservedly ponder the way in which temptation and sin actually operate within us.
We must consider what God thinks about disobedience. I believe He is grieved by it, even though He may not be surprised by it. Although even a human parent expects to see some disobedience in children, some types of disobedience can deeply grieve a parent.
We must also consider the specific words that God spoke to Adam and Eve after the fall. He clearly explained Adam’s error.
At the end of my previous post, I provided Romans 11:32 that may apply to Adam and Eve’s disobedience:
Romans 11 (RSV):
30 Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
I believe that after disobeying God’s instruction, and after hearing God‘s clear explanation of Adam’s error, and after cooperating with their Father in receiving an important change of clothing, Adam and Eve came to understand how weak and needy they were. I think that was the first time they felt weak and needy.
Feeling weak and needy after failure is a prerequisite for repentance and all subsequent obedience. I believe that Adam and Eve began to cling to their Lord after they had experientially learned that they would otherwise continue to fail. The same is true for us. We cling because we know that we will otherwise continue to fail.
Adam and Eve both failed their tests. They both disobeyed God’s clear instruction. Eve was talked into disobeying by listening to the tempter, and Adam was talked into disobeying by listening to (heeding) the words of his wife, who was mistaken. I believe that Adam sinned with his eyes wide open. When I look at these failures, I see that Adam was ultimately responsible. He knew better. He was older, and he had much accumulated fellowship experience with His Father before Eve was ever created. Adam had received instruction about the forbidden fruit directly from God before Eve was ever created.
They learned that Eve’s human strength was no match for the tempter‘s wiles. They learned that it was possible for Adam to be convinced by Eve to do something that was wrong, because in this case Eve was mistaken.
They learned that they were weak and in need of a Savior.
Those are the same lessons that we must learn.
I believe we are tested so that we will fail the test and thereby discover the Lord’s mercy and thereafter take refuge in Him. That appears to be what Paul was explaining in Romans 11:32.
Jesus Christ did not fail His own personal tests. He was already completely dependent upon His Heavenly Father before He was ever temped. He didn’t need to learn dependence through failure like we do. His complete dependence upon His Heavenly Father and deep communion with His Father was the reason that He never failed.
It is only by our complete dependence upon our Heavenly Father and deep communion with Him that we will continue to pass the test. We must continue to trust, cling to, and rely on Jesus Christ to do that.
Thank you for writing.
Ralph
Re: Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden
I believe we are tested so that we will fail the test and thereby discover the Lord’s mercy and thereafter take refuge in Him. That appears to be what Paul was explaining in Romans 11:32.
I agree Ralph. The only point i was trying to make was that God meant for Adam and Eve to fall because through their failures and ours we learn our need for God and our need for a Savior as you said.
The only reason i responded was re the remark about God being "brokenhearted" since it was God who made Eve morally weak and God put the forbidden tree in the middle of the garden and God who sent Satan to tempt Eve and it was God who already knew what the outcome would be and it is God who knows why we must experience evil. God could have created simply the tree of good , but God made that tree to include the knowledge of evil and knew what the outcome would be.
I agree Ralph. The only point i was trying to make was that God meant for Adam and Eve to fall because through their failures and ours we learn our need for God and our need for a Savior as you said.
The only reason i responded was re the remark about God being "brokenhearted" since it was God who made Eve morally weak and God put the forbidden tree in the middle of the garden and God who sent Satan to tempt Eve and it was God who already knew what the outcome would be and it is God who knows why we must experience evil. God could have created simply the tree of good , but God made that tree to include the knowledge of evil and knew what the outcome would be.