Pondering the Fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden

[Ralph]

Steve7150,

I appreciate both of your responses. Thank you.

As you have explained, God’s heart may not have been broken by the disobedience in Eden. Until people have been enlightened to the point of understanding their weakness and neediness, God might not be grieved.

However, I think we can rightfully say that God is grieved after repeated disobedience after enlightenment --- after a person has initially recognized His mercy --- after a person has initially found refuge in Him.

So I believe God would have been grieved if Adam and Eve had continued to disobey Him after they left Eden. But I don’t see any evidence that they were disobedient after they left Eden. They apparently raised Abel and Seth to seek after God.

Here are two references that speak of enlightened people grieving the Holy Spirit of God:

Isaiah 63 (RSV):
7 I will tell of the LORD’s unfailing love. I will praise the LORD for all he has done. I will rejoice in his great goodness to Israel, which he has granted according to his mercy and love. 8 He said, “They are my very own people. Surely they will not be false again.” And he became their Savior. 9 In all their suffering he also suffered, and he personally rescued them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them. He lifted them up and carried them through all the years.
10 But they rebelled against him and grieved his Holy Spirit.
That is why he became their enemy and fought against them. 11 Then they remembered those days of old when Moses led his people out of Egypt. They cried out, “Where is the one who brought Israel through the sea, with Moses as their shepherd? Where is the one who sent his Holy Spirit to be among his people? 12 Where is the one whose power divided the sea before them, when Moses lifted up his hand, establishing his reputation forever? 13 Where is the one who led them through the bottom of the sea? They were like fine stallions racing through the desert, never stumbling. 14 As with cattle going down into a peaceful valley, the Spirit of the LORD gave them rest. You led your people, LORD, and gained a magnificent reputation.”

Ephesians 4 (RSV):
25 Therefore, putting away falsehood, let every one speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. 26 Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and give no opportunity to the devil. 28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his hands, so that he may be able to give to those in need. 29 Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice, 32 and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

[steve7150]

Isaiah 63 (RSV):
7 I will tell of the LORD’s unfailing love. I will praise the LORD for all he has done. I will rejoice in his great goodness to Israel, which he has granted according to his mercy and love. 8 He said, “They are my very own people. Surely they will not be false again.” And he became their Savior. 9 In all their suffering he also suffered, and he personally rescued them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them. He lifted them up and carried them through all the years.
10 But they rebelled against him and grieved his Holy Spirit.
That is why he became their enemy and fought against them. 11 Then they remembered those days of old when Moses led his people out of Egypt. They cried out, “Where is the one who brought Israel through the sea, with Moses as their shepherd? Where is the one who sent his Holy Spirit to be among his people? 12 Where is the one whose power divided the sea before them, when Moses lifted up his hand, establishing his reputation forever? 13 Where is the one who led them through the bottom of the sea? They were like fine stallions racing through the desert, never stumbling. 14 As with cattle going down into a peaceful valley, the Spirit of the LORD gave them rest. You led your people, LORD, and gained a magnificent reputation.”






Thanks Ralph, Interestingly we just read these bible verses at our home group last night.

[Singalphile]

I was thinking about the this topic a bit the other day. I became aware that "the fall" is an extra-Biblical phrase. Unless I missed it, none of the Biblical writers use the term or anything like it ("fallen nature", "fall of man", etc.).

Genesis 3 says that Adam and Eve's "eyes were opened" when they presumably gained knowledge of good and evil. As a result, the pain of childbirth was multiplied, the ground was cursed to produce thorns and thistles, and access to a very nice area of land was removed (not to mention the source of immortality).

But we are now usually taught that all people and all things are now corrupted in one way or another because of the sin of Adam and Eve so that we all start off with some fundamentally different nature than they did. It's common to blame nearly everything - disease, natural disasters, accidents, immoral behavior, etc. - on "the fall".

(Incidentally, a symbolic/allegorical understanding of Genesis 3 would make this understanding more likely (even necessary), but a historical/literal reading doesn't really tell us any of this.)

Not that I have any problem with the traditional view, but I'm not too sure where it all comes from. Is it all from a few verse in Romans 5 and 8, would you say?

Thank you!

[steve7150]

Not that I have any problem with the traditional view, but I'm not too sure where it all comes from. Is it all from a few verse in Romans 5 and 8, would you say?










I think paradigms are hard to change and this one is very ingrained which is that God is responsible for good and Satan is responsible for evil and we often choose evil because of our fallen nature. It's an easy sell and an appealing message but IMHO it's not true. Although we have the gift of free choice we severely lack wisdom and to gain wisdom we have to experience everything that contributes to wisdom , things like good and evil. Therefore IMO God always meant for us to experience everything needed for us to know good and evil.

[Paidion]

Then the question is, that Eve having no knowledge that lusting is sin...

What? Wherever did you get the idea that lusting is sin? Jesus Himself lusted:

And He said to them, "With lust, I lusted to eat this passover with you before I suffer." (Luke 22:15)

Oh, I know. All translations render the Greek word as "desire" in this context. But it's the same Greek word that is translated as "lust" in other contexts. Actually the words are synonymous except that "lust" is an older English form, coming from the German. Ask any German-speaking person if the German word "lust" necessarily represents a form of sin.

[Paidion]

Ralph, you have certainly been thinking about this. And I'm sure you're right about a lot of what you have expressed.

I was wondering though about what you said concerning the Tree of Life. It is true that Adam and Eve were not forbidden to eat from it. But did they, in fact, eat from it? If they had, wouldn't they have lived forever by doing so? I thought perhaps they had "missed it". For if they had already been eating from it, why would God then set up a guard around the garden so that they couldn't eat from it anymore? Or did they have to continually eat from it in order to sustain life?