Carnal nature/the flesh?

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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ryan
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Carnal nature/the flesh?

Post by ryan » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:07 pm

Hi everyone,

During our midweek service, we've been studying scripture so as to examine "what we believe" as a church/denomination. Most of the topics/positions I would generally agree with, but when we get to the Wesleyan teaching of "entire sanctification", I struggle more with my own understanding/beliefs (our denom affirms Wesleyan beliefs... the Churches of Christ in Christian Union).

The pastor was trying to demonstrate that "entire sanctification" can cleanse the carnal nature (referencing 1 Cor. 3), but we still will have to guard against and battle the temptations that come from our own flesh. Natural desires that, if responded to incorrectly, can lead to sin. He made a strong delineation between carnal nature, and the flesh.

We ran out of time before I could pose my question last night, so I'll ask people here...

Is carnal nature the same as "the flesh"?

The pastor seemed to indicate no. But, when I look at 1 Cor. 3, the lexicon and Strong's point me to the word "sarkikos" for carnal, which has a definition of "pertaining to the flesh; under the control of animal appetites". This seems to me to be the same definition as what he was referring as "the flesh."

I don't mean this to be a thread about entire sanctification (I know that can be, and has been, its own topic), but instead, can anyone help clear up for me the relationship between the carnal nature and the flesh?

Thanks for any help! You're responding to someone who can be a little dense sometimes, so keep it simple! :P

-Ryan

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Perry
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Re: Carnal nature/the flesh?

Post by Perry » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:39 pm

Hi Ryan,

(Studiously avoiding a discussion of entire sanctification and sticking with the specific question.)

I don't think you're being dense at all. From what I can tell, you've got a pretty good handle on the usage of the word carnal. As near as I can tell, it is an adjective form of flesh. In fact, there are two verses where the same Greek word is translated "fleshly" (at least in the KJV). 2Cor 1:12, 1Pet 2:11. In every other case "sarkikos" is translated "carnal". So it looks to me as though talking about a "carnal nature" is the same as talking about a "fleshly nature".

When I search e-sword on sarkikos, I find 10 instances of it. Hope this helps.

(Rom 7:14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

(Rom 15:27) It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

(1Co 3:1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

(1Co 3:3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

(1Co 3:4) For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

(1Co 9:11) If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

(2Co 1:12) For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

(2Co 10:4) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

(Heb 7:16) Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

(1Pe 2:11) Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

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steve
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Re: Carnal nature/the flesh?

Post by steve » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:54 pm

The root of the word "carnal", in English, like the familiar Spanish "carne" (meat, flesh) is in the Latin: carno-, carn-, carne-, carni-. (flesh, meat). The Hebrew word basar, and the Greek word sarx are the essential equivalents. Both are often translated "flesh" in English Bibles. Sarkikos ("Carnal") is the adjectival form of sarx and simply means "fleshly"

As with the Latin, Spanish and English words, the Greek word can mean "meat," such as people eat if they are "carnivores", or else the "meat" that is hanging attached to our bones (cf., Gen.2:21)—that is, our bodies.

In scripture, the Hebrew basar and the Greek sarx are very flexible words. They are used of "flesh" that is eaten (e.g., Gen.9:4; 1 Kings 17:6; Ps.50:13; 1 Cor.8:13); also of the human body (e.g., Gen.17:13; 1 Kings 21:27; Job 2:5; Ps.16:9; John 6:51). They are used of the totality of humanity, as in the phrase, "all flesh" (e.g., Gen.6:12, 17; Ps.56:4; Isa.40:5; John 17:2; Rom.3:20); and, less broadly, of one's own kin, as in "you are my flesh" (e.g., Gen.29:14; 37:27; Rom.11:14). Sarx is also used in phrases like "according to the flesh" with a meaning something like "according to nature" (e.g., John 8:15; Rom.1:3; 4:1; 8:4; 9:3; 1 Cor.10:18; 2 Cor.10:2; Eph.6:5). Thus, Paul's phrase "in the flesh" (Rom.8:8-9) can mean "in the natural state" (as opposed to "in the Spirit"—the regenerated state).

It is often thought by theologians that Paul uses the term to mean "sinful nature," in certain instances. It is entirely possible that Paul has such a meaning in mind, though it is not certain if, or how often, he means it with this specific connotation. Many English translations do us the disservice of simply translating "sarx" as "sinful nature," without informing us that this is not the translation of the word, but it is the translator's preferred interpretation of the word "flesh" (e.g., Galatians 5:19 NIV)

It seems to me that, when Paul uses the word "flesh" as essentially equivalent to the concept of "nature," he does not always have the sinfulness of our nature specifically in mind. It is my opinion that his focus is often on the "limitations" or "weaknesses" of our nature, unaided by grace. This weakness is manifested, of course, in our sinning, it is true. However, to assume that Paul always has in mind the corruption, rather than the impotence, of our nature may be a mistake—and has led to theologians coining the phrase "our sinful nature"—a term that has no Greek basis other than the word sarx, which, as I said, may not mean that exactly.

In any case, this interpretive practice, and the adoption of the phrase "sinful nature" (which has been institutionalized in many of our English translations) has given rise to the idea that there is a component within us that can be isolated for examination and discussion, called "the sinful nature." Once this convention has been adopted, it becomes natural to speak of the sinful nature as some thing that can be "eradicated," "subordinated," "suppressed," etc. From this concept arise various theories of what the work of sanctification does vis-a-vis the "sinful nature."

But nature is not a thing. "Nature" is simply a category (in contrast with super-nature, spirit, or grace) under which our complexity as humans can be discussed. We are one thing "by nature" (or "according to the flesh") and we are something else "supernaturally," that is, by grace. When Paul discusses "the flesh" in the sense of our nature, he definitely seems to be mindful of our natural propensity to do evil, but it is not the only aspect of our natural state that he might have in mind by use of the term. I think the determining of the precise usage of "flesh" in Paul's writings requires a case-by-case consideration of context. The broad-brushing of the term by the popular non-translation of sarx as "sinful nature," has not, in my opinion, been helpful, nor completely honest. In fact, it has been one of my pet peeves about certain Bible translations.

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ryan
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Carnal nature/the flesh?

Post by ryan » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:24 am

Thank you to both Perry and Steve... you've given me some food for thought. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

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