what about the soul

[jeremiah]

jr, your last statement about getting back to what might interest rich's question made me think it might be good to start a new thread. maybe it will fizzle out or not, either way i have enjoyed getting to know how others think on this subject. edit- by the way, the subject title is not in any way meant to be provocative.

That we are a person of spirit, is necessary for Paul to describe it thus;

For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed(2 Corinthians 5:1-4)

yeah man, no surprise to you i'm sure, but i disagree. what i see to be the only necessity in this passage is to recognize paul is speaking of reality but using metaphors to do so. how we may interpret the metaphors is another story.
the function of a tent or building as housing to people is not the only possible idea paul is relating. i think the function is part of it of course, but i think there is more to it than that. paul made tents, as a tent maker he would be intimately aware of them being prone to wear out. that is they are perishable. just like us. he then describes the building from God as "not made with hands" by this drawing another contrast between a tent made by human hands(as we have borne the image of the man of dust) and an eternal building made by God that cannot be torn down(we shall also bear the image of the heavenly man), i think the point of his metaphor is to convey the corruptibility of our bodies now as opposed what God will make us on the last day. "that mortality may be swallowed up by life"

grace and peace...

[jriccitelli]

Still:
1. Where do we go (or where are we) in the time between when we die and the time we are given a new body?
2. Where does the Holy Spirit (that dwells in us) go when we die?
3. Are we a we, after death? Or do you hold to what Paidion said, we no longer exist?

(I am not saying we are holding these answers as definitive; I was trying to boil down the reasoning behind these view points. I understand that this area does not offer much scripture to go on, and that things like spirit and heaven can defy semantics and definitions)
I was wondering if 'being asleep yet alive in Christ' would appeal to your definition of the post death state.
4. Couldn't we 'appear' as asleep to those on earth (mortals) and alive to those with Christ?
I think asleep is a good metaphor for death, because an asleep person is not dead but very much alive, just anticipating the receiving of a new body, and the reunion with those still alive on earth, non the less overjoyed to be with Christ.

[jeremiah]

whats up jr,

1. as far as i can tell we go to the grave[sheol/hades]

2. i don't know a solid answer to this. the only thing that comes to mind is how david said if he made his bed in sheol, God was there. but i would add, this becomes a moot question if human souls and spirits as understood by pluralists (darin that one's for you ) are indeed absent from scripture.

3. regarding paidion's words i don't want to misrepresent him so i'll just say tentatively, i think the key to understanding his meaning is to remember he defines soul differently than you do when you see .."it no longer exists..." from my perspective i can imagine a sense in which that's not at all a crazy way of speaking. are we a we after death? yes, that's what i was trying to point out regarding how scripture speaks of those who are dead in my 02/29/12 post.

4. yes we could hypothetically, but i hasten to point out, in the christian scriptures it is only by the resurrection on the last day when this mortality will put on immortality, or that "mortality may be swallowed up by life." if we only appear dead to those on earth, then i would expect to see paul comforting the thessalonians with an assurance that those who are sleep in Christ are really with the Lord. but he tells them to take comfort in the assurance of resurrection...our blessed hope. i think paul is also giving the corinthians that same assurance in 2 cor 4,5. grace and peace...

[verbatim]

Hi All,

1. as far as i can tell we go to the grave[sheol/hades]

Zechariah 13:8-9 And it shall come to pass, [that] in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off [and] die; but the third shall be left therein.
v.9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.
Man is constituted with 3 distinct parts spirit body and soul 1 Thessalonians 5:23 when a man dies he/she will be divided into 3 the flesh/body will return to dust, his soul the spirit of the beast
#1.Shall go to Hades and the spirit of the man will goes upward Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
#2. v.21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
e,g. is Luke 16:22, 23 where Lazarus were brought by angels in Abraham’s bosom and the rich man in Hades.
#3 “Life” the third part mentioned in Zechariah v.9 which is spirit from God will return to God; Gen 2:7 And the Lord God made man from the dust of the earth, breathing into him the breath of life: and man became a living soul. Ecclesiastes 12:7 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
They will will be resurrected soon when Jesus return to reign within 1,000 years together those who will be not sleep in 1 Corinthians 15:51which is the first resurrection.

Verbatim 3/5/21

[Paidion]

Who are "we"?

I think a correct answer to this question says a lot in solving the mind/body problem.

1. Are we a conscious "soul" who live in a body as a man may live in a tent?
2. Are we a conscious "spirit" that floats off somewhere at death in a disembodied state?
3. Are we a mere material body?

I think that the answer to each of these questions is "No".

I thing that we are a unified being of which the terms "spirit" and "body" are aspects of that being. That unified being may be termed a "soul". You don't have a soul; you are a soul — according to Genesis 2:7. This whole, unified being may be called a "person." One requires both a body and the spirit of life to vivify that body, in order to be a person (or a "soul"). In the Old Testament, the best translation of the word nephesh is "being". A human person is a "being". He is a "human being". In the New Testament, the word "psychos" is best translated as "self". Each human being is a "self".

In Greek thought, the consciousness of a human being is thought to exist as some ethereal, immortal substance which resides throughout the body, and has the same "form" as the body itself. It leaves the body at death and is re-incarnated in another body or animal. That was Plato's teaching, and it has been incorporated into Christendom. We find no such concept of "soul" in the Bible.

If we believe as the apostle Paul believed, our hope won't in the "natural immortality of the soul" but in the resurrection from the dead. We can trust Christ implicitly to raise us from the dead, that "this mortal might put on immortality." At that time our salvation will be complete as we will be complete in righteousness — our great hope!
If we are not raised from the dead, we may as well eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die, and will remain dead.

In the great, resurrection chapter (I Corinthians 15) Paul teaches that if there is no resurrection, we have only this present life to live, and thus are to be pitied more than any other people:

If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. (I Corinthians 15:19)

He also indicated that if there is no resurrection, we might as well enjoy our life on earth as much as possible, since there would be no life beyond it:

If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” (I Corinthians 15:32)

[verbatim]

Paidion wrote:

Who are "we"?
I think a correct answer to this question says a lot in solving the mind/body problem.
1. Are we a conscious "soul" who live in a body as a man may live in a tent?
2. Are we a conscious "spirit" that floats off somewhere at death in a disembodied state?
3. Are we a mere material body?
I think that the answer to each of these questions is "No"

My answer is Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, & breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(pneuma); and man became a living soul(nephesh). A tripartite individual
Composed of three distinct parts spirit (pneuma), soul (psyche) & body (soma) spirit, mind and body.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)

I thing that we are a unified being of which the terms "spirit" and "body" are aspects of that being. That unified being may be termed a "soul". You don't have a soul; you are a soul — according to Genesis 2:7. This whole, unified being may be called a "person." One requires both a body and the spirit of life to vivify that body, in order to be a person (or a "soul"). In the Old Testament, the best translation of the word nephesh is "being". A human person is a "being". He is a "human being". In the New Testament, the word "psychos" is best translated as "self". Each human being is a "self".

Agree/disagree;
We normally perceive a person’s heart and mind as being internal to them, because we can’t see their thoughts and feelings. However, even if thoughts and emotions are internal or private, they aren’t necessarily spiritual. One could argue that they are produced in the flesh brain without any spiritual input. Therefore, we need to look deeper into the scriptures to establish that there is more to nephesh than simply a flesh body.
Life is distinct to soul and soul is distinct to flesh but they are conjointly together or unified in one body. When times come at death they will be separated by the; For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12 (KJV)

In Greek thought, the consciousness of a human being is thought to exist as some ethereal, immortal substance which resides throughout the body, and has the same "form" as the body itself. It leaves the body at death and is re-incarnated in another body or animal.

Agree.

That was Plato's teaching, and it has been incorporated into Christendom. We find no such concept of "soul" in the Bible.

I don’t base my concept in Plato’s teaching but in Scripture manifestation in Luke 16:22-23 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
V23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. KJV (awaiting for final judgment) emphasis mine)

If we believe as the apostle Paul believed, our hope won't in the "natural immortality of the soul" but in the resurrection from the dead. We can trust Christ implicitly to raise us from the dead, that "this mortal might put on immortality." At that time our salvation will be complete as we will be complete in righteousness — our great hope!
If we are not raised from the dead, we may as well eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die, and will remain dead.
In the great, resurrection chapter (I Corinthians 15) Paul teaches that if there is no resurrection, we have only this present life to live, and thus are to be pitied more than any other people:
If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. (I Corinthians 15:19)
He also indicated that if there is no resurrection, we might as well enjoy our life on earth as much as possible, since there would be no life beyond it:
If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” (I Corinthians 15:32)

1 Corinthians 15:12-23 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (context KJV)

[Haole]

If Jehovah's Witnesses say that Jesus was not physically raised, and the soul is "just" another word for person and the spirit is just like "electricity" then what part of Jesus was raised?

[jeremiah]

good evening verbatim,

genesis 2:7 is where we are coming from as well.

My answer is Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, & breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(pneuma); and man became a living soul(nephesh). A tripartite individual
Composed of three distinct parts spirit (pneuma), soul (psyche) & body (soma) spirit, mind and body.

i don't believe a tripartite individual can be exegeted from this passage. it does not say God breathed into adam a spirit(as you understand one) that is immaterial and man recieved a mind. all it's telling us is God gave life to adam which caused him to breathe. the way you describe your position contradicts what genesis said. that is, humans cannot "have" souls, since adam "became" one, we are a soul. do you also think the animals in whose nostrils is the breath of life are tripartite as well? their being is described in the same way ours is. the same word translated soul is used to describe the animals in genesis (nephesh). further "ruwach" translated as breath in gen 2:7 is elsewhere translated as mind [Gen 26:35,Prov 29:11, Ezekiel 11:5, 20:32, Dan 2:29,5:20, Hab 1:11].

jesus said to love the lord your God with are you soul, heart, mind, strength. our soul and mind are not the same. i think the scriptures use of the terms soul, spirit, heart, mind, and strength, are used to describe aspects of the human person but none of them are meant to imply a distinct entity as is traditionally assumed. i think if we look again, without projecting an echo of what we want to see, then it's not difficult to recognize the hebrew and christian scriptures alike, do not use soul, spirit, and body the way we have been taught to think they do.

here is the thread that started this one, http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... &sk=t&sd=a

grace and peace

[jeremiah]

If Jehovah's Witnesses say that Jesus was not physically raised, and the soul is "just" another word for person and the spirit is just like "electricity" then what part of Jesus was raised?

i'm not sure i understand your question, i don't think anyone is suggesting only a part of jesus was raised. could you elaborate on it a little?

grace with you...

[verbatim]

Hi Jeremiah greetings,
First is thanks to the links, I read it faithfully and knows how every one of us has different insight about our topic.and it is Darin who like me thought that man is trichotomy spirit,soul and body.I like "paidion' way how he divide the word in Gen 2:7 but fail to acknowledge if who is the the breath that quickened the body which were formed from the dust of the ground.

And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
the first man Adam was made a living soul: in the Hebrew text it is, man, or Adam, became, or was made a living soul; that is, as the apostle says, "the first man Adam": he calls him, as the Jews (a) frequently do, , "the first man"; he was the first man that was made, and the first parent of mankind, and the head and representative of all his posterity, and so the first in time, causality and dignity; whose name was Adam, so called by God in the day he was created, because he was formed , "from the ground, or earth"; when God breathed life into the earthly mass, or lump; and being animated with a rational soul, it became an animal body, or a living creature; and so the apostle proves, from the first man that was upon earth, that there is a natural, or animal body; a body animated by a soul, and which was supported by eating and drinking, by sleep and rest; and was capable of dying, and should die, in case of sin; and which was the state of it in its first creation, whilst in innocence, and before the fall; and this is all he meant to prove by this Scripture; for what follows is not mentioned as therein written, or elsewhere, but as the apostle's own assertion:

1 Corinthians 15:45-48 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.

After the falls of the couple when they had transgressed against God they were cursed as follow;
Genesis 3:14-15, 17And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; As a result of sinned Jeremiah prophesied in;
Jeremiah 31:27-28 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.(v.28)And it shall come to pass, [that] like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.

The second Adam was a life giving or quickening spirit which is the spirit moving over the water (sperm/egg cell) in time of creation Genesis 1:2 and life/light in NT John 1:4 In forming of Adam the first made was the natural body (flesh) and afterward God input the second spiritual body, the breath of life (pneuma) and Adam became a living being(nephesh).
The second Adam is the Lord from heaven (v.47) who dwelt and hid himself to his own people which is mentioned in Isaiah 45:14-15 & John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

If one failed to acknowledge the spirit of Christ within self, Colossians 1:26-27 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Man will be divided to three in time of death by Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 & 12:7 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
(v.21)Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.