Re: Eph. 2:8: Carl Conrad, moderator of B-Greek online and Prof. Emeritus of Classical languages at Washington Univ. in St. Louis, thinks that there are probably quite a few Greek verbs that are middle-passive. But he points out that by this term he doesn't mean middle OR passive. An example he gives is of one undergoing baptism. In one sense the baptizee is the passive object in the immersion process. But on the other hand the baptizee himself has requested and consented to this action. And so in this sense the action is middle. And so it is not a case where the one baptized is demonstrating middle OR passive action, but both, if in different aspects.
Even so, I think there's an aspect of the middle-passive role of the individual in the salvation process. A man himself is the one who, exercising faith in God's provision of the Son, receives the power to become a child of God; yet he is also the passive recipient of God making him a son.
As long as we steer clear of errors of the sort that would suggest that the "middle" aspect is man providing his own atonement, I think we can see the middle-passive principle at work.
It seems to me that the entire work of the Spirit in a person's life follows the same path. In one sense we are passive in the reception of righteous thoughts which the Spirit places on the grid of our minds for our possible consideration. Yet in another sense we may take these thoughts and ponder and act properly on them. So in one sense we are rather passive in the process, but in another sense we ourselves act.
And so, when the Bible speaks about the gifts of the Spirit, it seems to me they work in the same way that Jesus said a father gives something to his son who asks him. The son is the passive recipient, but at the same time he must himself act in reaching out his hands to receive what his father is giving him.
Ephesians 2:8
Re: Ephesians 2:8
DanielGracely,
I like the way you expressed that. Good post.
I like the way you expressed that. Good post.
Re: Ephesians 2:8
Has anyone considered the possibility that the gift is a collective thing, given to the whole church and not thought of as a separate gift to each individual?
Note that the "you" is plural, and the verb is perfect plural, so this could be understood as "you (plural) are in the condition of being saved".
The gift is singular, as is faith (πίστεω = "out of faith" or "out of faithfulness"). The gift is God's salvation to the church, the faith is Christ's faithfulness. The notion of πίστεω referring to Christ's faithfulness will not sound strange if you are familiar with the work of NT Wright. Of course we have to respond to Christ in faith for his faithfulness to do us any good, but the emphasis here is on Christ's faithfulness, not the individual faith of each believer.
The collective interpretation goes well with 2:10 (we are God's workmanship), and this is further fleshed out in 2:19-22 (built together, believer with believer, and Jews and Gentiles joined as one).
The "works" in 2:9 ties to the "circumcision" in 2:11. Note that circumcision is something the Jews boasted about (Gal 6:13). I don't see anything in the context to suggest "works" means self-righteousness or that anyone was boasting about self-righteousness.
The idea of God raising us up with Christ in 2:6-7 also works well collectively when you compare it with 3:10. God, by his grace, through Christ's faithfulness, has raised up a community, Jew and Gentile together, as a witness to the powers in the heavenly realms.
The significance of all this to the Ephesians, of course, is that they are mostly Gentiles who had previously been put down by Jews or Judaizing Christians. Paul is writing Ephesians to assure them that now, in Christ, they have everything the Jews claimed exclusively for themselves. It is perfectly understandable that Paul would write such a message. I do not think it makes sense to say that Paul was writing against "works righteousness" because no one was concerned about that issue in the first century.
Note that the "you" is plural, and the verb is perfect plural, so this could be understood as "you (plural) are in the condition of being saved".
The gift is singular, as is faith (πίστεω = "out of faith" or "out of faithfulness"). The gift is God's salvation to the church, the faith is Christ's faithfulness. The notion of πίστεω referring to Christ's faithfulness will not sound strange if you are familiar with the work of NT Wright. Of course we have to respond to Christ in faith for his faithfulness to do us any good, but the emphasis here is on Christ's faithfulness, not the individual faith of each believer.
The collective interpretation goes well with 2:10 (we are God's workmanship), and this is further fleshed out in 2:19-22 (built together, believer with believer, and Jews and Gentiles joined as one).
The "works" in 2:9 ties to the "circumcision" in 2:11. Note that circumcision is something the Jews boasted about (Gal 6:13). I don't see anything in the context to suggest "works" means self-righteousness or that anyone was boasting about self-righteousness.
The idea of God raising us up with Christ in 2:6-7 also works well collectively when you compare it with 3:10. God, by his grace, through Christ's faithfulness, has raised up a community, Jew and Gentile together, as a witness to the powers in the heavenly realms.
The significance of all this to the Ephesians, of course, is that they are mostly Gentiles who had previously been put down by Jews or Judaizing Christians. Paul is writing Ephesians to assure them that now, in Christ, they have everything the Jews claimed exclusively for themselves. It is perfectly understandable that Paul would write such a message. I do not think it makes sense to say that Paul was writing against "works righteousness" because no one was concerned about that issue in the first century.
Re: Ephesians 2:8
The middle/passive voice of a verb is so called, not because the verb can be either or middle or passive in usage, or both middle and passive in usage, but because the written form of each is identical.
The usage of the middle voice in classical Greek was to act "for oneself." For example "λυω" is in the active voice and means "I am loosing". "λυομαι" as the classic middle voice would mean "I am loosing for myself". However, the classic middle voice usage seems to have been lost in Hellenistic or Koine Greek (the Greek written in the period from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) I have failed to find a single classic usage of the middle voice in the New Testament. To express "for myself", for "for himself", etc. a different voice is used with a reflexive pronoun. Thus in the New Testament, the middle/passive form is used either in the passive voice, or as a deponent (the middle voice with an active meaning).
For example the present active αρχω means "I am ruling".
The present middle/passive form "αρχομαι" could be:
(1) a passive — in which case it would mean "I am ruled".
(2) a classic middle (not found in the NT) — in which case it would mean "I am ruling for myself"
(3) a deponent — in which case it would mean "I am beginning".
There are many passives and deponents in the New Testament, but I have never found a classic middle usage. If anyone knows of such a case, I would be pleased to be informed.
The usage of the middle voice in classical Greek was to act "for oneself." For example "λυω" is in the active voice and means "I am loosing". "λυομαι" as the classic middle voice would mean "I am loosing for myself". However, the classic middle voice usage seems to have been lost in Hellenistic or Koine Greek (the Greek written in the period from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) I have failed to find a single classic usage of the middle voice in the New Testament. To express "for myself", for "for himself", etc. a different voice is used with a reflexive pronoun. Thus in the New Testament, the middle/passive form is used either in the passive voice, or as a deponent (the middle voice with an active meaning).
For example the present active αρχω means "I am ruling".
The present middle/passive form "αρχομαι" could be:
(1) a passive — in which case it would mean "I am ruled".
(2) a classic middle (not found in the NT) — in which case it would mean "I am ruling for myself"
(3) a deponent — in which case it would mean "I am beginning".
There are many passives and deponents in the New Testament, but I have never found a classic middle usage. If anyone knows of such a case, I would be pleased to be informed.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Ephesians 2:8
Hi Paidion,
Daniel Wallace lists five examples of the middle voice used as a reflexive (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 417):
Matt 27:5 he hanged himself
Mark 14:54 [Peter] was warming himself by the fire
Luke 12:37 he will gird himself
Acts 12:21 Herod clothed himself
Rev 3:18 that you might clothe yourself
He also gives several other possible examples from the NT.
Is there a middle form somewhere in the Ephesians 2 passage that is of interest? Just curious. Or for that matter, a middle form of the verb "saved" anywhere in the NT that might shed light on this passage?
Daniel Wallace lists five examples of the middle voice used as a reflexive (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 417):
Matt 27:5 he hanged himself
Mark 14:54 [Peter] was warming himself by the fire
Luke 12:37 he will gird himself
Acts 12:21 Herod clothed himself
Rev 3:18 that you might clothe yourself
He also gives several other possible examples from the NT.
Is there a middle form somewhere in the Ephesians 2 passage that is of interest? Just curious. Or for that matter, a middle form of the verb "saved" anywhere in the NT that might shed light on this passage?
Re: Ephesians 2:8
Tychicus,
According to William D. Mounce author of Basics of Biblical Greek, the middle voice was NOT reflexive in meaning. However, Mounce discussed the “classical meaning of the middle” as follows:
“If a verb is in the active, then the subject does the action of the verb. If the verb is in the passive, then the subject receives the action of the verb. The classical definition of the middle voice is that the action of a verb in the middle voice in some way affects the subject. We will call this the 'self-interest' nuance of the middle.
This is not the reflexive idea. If the subject of the verb performs an action to itself, Greek requires the reflexive pronoun (ἑαυτου) . Rather, in the middle the subject does the action of the verb to the direct object, and yet the action of the verb in some way affects the subject.
Most middle paradigms translate the middle as 'I loose for myself,' 'They loose for themselves.' The problem with learning the middle this way is that the actual force of the middle does not normally connote 'self-interest,' or else the force of the middle is so subtle that it is scarcely discernible.”
[Underlining for emphasis is mine]
—William D. Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek, pp224, 25.13
In the next section, 25.14, Mounce affirms:
“In the majority of cases, the middle has the same meaning as the active. Either they are deponents, or their middle meaning is active to the English mind.”
Since the 5 verses you quoted seem to be offered as a reflexive meaning of the middle, and since Mounce denies this meaning, I examined the verses to see whether there was another explanation of the reflexive translation of each.
Matthew 27:5 Aorist middle indicative.
“…. he went away and strangled.”
The Greek word here is ἀπαγχομαι. Aorist indicatives frequently have two different meanings, one in the active voice, and another in the middle voice. Both meanings appear to be active. An example is:
ἀρχω, in the active voice, means “I rule” while “ἀρχομαι”, the same word in the middle voice means “I begin.” (not “I begin myself”). Sometimes the active voice of words disappear, and the Greek is left with the middle meaning only. ἀπαγχομαι may be one of those words. Abbot-Smith's lexicon says that ἀπαγχομαι is derived from ἀγχω, a word in the active voice. But I couldn't find ἀγχω in any lexicons of New Testament words.
Most translations render the word as “hung himself”, though Murdoch, YLT, and CLV render it as “strangled himself.” CLV places “himself” in italics to indicate that the word was added. It may very well be that “himself” was added in all translations for clarity, but that in Greek it was unnecessary. Even in English we have such words where the reflexive is understood but not stated. We can say either “Katy went into her room and dressed” or “Katy went to her room and dressed herself”. Thus the reflexive need not and should not be considered to be part of the meaning of the middle voice (as indeed Mounce seems to indicate that it never is).
Mark 14:54 Present middle/passive
Here the word θερμαινομενος is a participle in the present tense — middle/passive form. Since the middle and passive forms are indentical, this word could be meant as passive. If so, the translation might be:
“He was sitting with the guards and being warmed near the fire.”
Luke 12:37 Future middle indicative περιζωσεται
The future middle indicative is normally deponent (middle in form but active in meaning) as for example πορευσομαι (I will go). Thus περιζωσεται means “he will dress” or if the translator prefers, “he will dress himself.” Omit “himself” and the meaning is not changed. I am not aware of any future active indicative of this word.
Acts 12:21 aorist middle participle ἐνδυσαμενος
The active, middle, and passive seem to have the same meaning for participles.
The clause in question may be translated, “After putting on his royal robes, took his seat upon the throne and made an oration.”
Revelation 3:18 2nd aorist middle περιβαλῃ subjunctive
“that you may dress” would be entirely suitable. The reflexive “yourself” has been added by translators — I suppose for clarification.
According to William D. Mounce author of Basics of Biblical Greek, the middle voice was NOT reflexive in meaning. However, Mounce discussed the “classical meaning of the middle” as follows:
“If a verb is in the active, then the subject does the action of the verb. If the verb is in the passive, then the subject receives the action of the verb. The classical definition of the middle voice is that the action of a verb in the middle voice in some way affects the subject. We will call this the 'self-interest' nuance of the middle.
This is not the reflexive idea. If the subject of the verb performs an action to itself, Greek requires the reflexive pronoun (ἑαυτου) . Rather, in the middle the subject does the action of the verb to the direct object, and yet the action of the verb in some way affects the subject.
Most middle paradigms translate the middle as 'I loose for myself,' 'They loose for themselves.' The problem with learning the middle this way is that the actual force of the middle does not normally connote 'self-interest,' or else the force of the middle is so subtle that it is scarcely discernible.”
[Underlining for emphasis is mine]
—William D. Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek, pp224, 25.13
In the next section, 25.14, Mounce affirms:
“In the majority of cases, the middle has the same meaning as the active. Either they are deponents, or their middle meaning is active to the English mind.”
Since the 5 verses you quoted seem to be offered as a reflexive meaning of the middle, and since Mounce denies this meaning, I examined the verses to see whether there was another explanation of the reflexive translation of each.
Matthew 27:5 Aorist middle indicative.
“…. he went away and strangled.”
The Greek word here is ἀπαγχομαι. Aorist indicatives frequently have two different meanings, one in the active voice, and another in the middle voice. Both meanings appear to be active. An example is:
ἀρχω, in the active voice, means “I rule” while “ἀρχομαι”, the same word in the middle voice means “I begin.” (not “I begin myself”). Sometimes the active voice of words disappear, and the Greek is left with the middle meaning only. ἀπαγχομαι may be one of those words. Abbot-Smith's lexicon says that ἀπαγχομαι is derived from ἀγχω, a word in the active voice. But I couldn't find ἀγχω in any lexicons of New Testament words.
Most translations render the word as “hung himself”, though Murdoch, YLT, and CLV render it as “strangled himself.” CLV places “himself” in italics to indicate that the word was added. It may very well be that “himself” was added in all translations for clarity, but that in Greek it was unnecessary. Even in English we have such words where the reflexive is understood but not stated. We can say either “Katy went into her room and dressed” or “Katy went to her room and dressed herself”. Thus the reflexive need not and should not be considered to be part of the meaning of the middle voice (as indeed Mounce seems to indicate that it never is).
Mark 14:54 Present middle/passive
Here the word θερμαινομενος is a participle in the present tense — middle/passive form. Since the middle and passive forms are indentical, this word could be meant as passive. If so, the translation might be:
“He was sitting with the guards and being warmed near the fire.”
Luke 12:37 Future middle indicative περιζωσεται
The future middle indicative is normally deponent (middle in form but active in meaning) as for example πορευσομαι (I will go). Thus περιζωσεται means “he will dress” or if the translator prefers, “he will dress himself.” Omit “himself” and the meaning is not changed. I am not aware of any future active indicative of this word.
Acts 12:21 aorist middle participle ἐνδυσαμενος
The active, middle, and passive seem to have the same meaning for participles.
The clause in question may be translated, “After putting on his royal robes, took his seat upon the throne and made an oration.”
Revelation 3:18 2nd aorist middle περιβαλῃ subjunctive
“that you may dress” would be entirely suitable. The reflexive “yourself” has been added by translators — I suppose for clarification.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Ephesians 2:8
Hi Paidion,
Mounce recommends Wallace's text for advanced study, so it's hard to think the two men are greatly at odds.
Actually in my version of Basics of Biblical Greek (Second Edition) the quotes of your underlined sections are a little different: "This is not necessarily the reflexive idea" and "Greek usually requires the reflexive pronoun (ἑαυτου)", where I bolded the additional word. So in my version he allowed for exceptions; I don't know if your version is later or not.
But no matter how you look at this it seems everyone is in agreement that, for example, Matt 27:5 means that Judas hanged himself. Whether you call the reflexive sense part of "the meaning" of the word hanged or just "the understanding" of it seems of little consequence to me. Why is that distinction so important to you?
Getting back to Eph 2 I noticed that all the verbs in 2:7-9 are middle or middle-passive (2:7 show, come; 2:8 saved; 2:9 boast). I would agree with all the translations that "saved" has the passive sense and the others the active sense, but I suppose someone could argue on linguistic grounds that "saved" could be interpreted as perfect middle with the sense "by grace you are in the condition of saving yourselves through faith". Now that really opens a can of worms. I really shouldn't have brought it up (and I certainly won't defend it). I'm just trying to coax the thread back into a discussion of Ephesians 2.
Mounce recommends Wallace's text for advanced study, so it's hard to think the two men are greatly at odds.
Actually in my version of Basics of Biblical Greek (Second Edition) the quotes of your underlined sections are a little different: "This is not necessarily the reflexive idea" and "Greek usually requires the reflexive pronoun (ἑαυτου)", where I bolded the additional word. So in my version he allowed for exceptions; I don't know if your version is later or not.
But no matter how you look at this it seems everyone is in agreement that, for example, Matt 27:5 means that Judas hanged himself. Whether you call the reflexive sense part of "the meaning" of the word hanged or just "the understanding" of it seems of little consequence to me. Why is that distinction so important to you?
Getting back to Eph 2 I noticed that all the verbs in 2:7-9 are middle or middle-passive (2:7 show, come; 2:8 saved; 2:9 boast). I would agree with all the translations that "saved" has the passive sense and the others the active sense, but I suppose someone could argue on linguistic grounds that "saved" could be interpreted as perfect middle with the sense "by grace you are in the condition of saving yourselves through faith". Now that really opens a can of worms. I really shouldn't have brought it up (and I certainly won't defend it). I'm just trying to coax the thread back into a discussion of Ephesians 2.
Re: Ephesians 2:8
Thanks, Tychicus. I am wondering whether I have the FIRST edition, and that Mounce changed his mind about the matter in the second edition.Tychicus wrote:Actually in my version of Basics of Biblical Greek (Second Edition) the quotes of your underlined sections are a little different: "This is not necessarily the reflexive idea" and "Greek usually requires the reflexive pronoun (ἑαυτου)", where I bolded the additional word. So in my version he allowed for exceptions; I don't know if your version is later or not.
My edition is Copyright © 1993. Would that be the first edition? What year was the second edition copyrighted?
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Ephesians 2:8
There is one verb in that section which is not middle or middle-passive. That verb is "εστε". It is 2nd person plural, present active indicative (usually the continuous present), of the verb "ειμι" (to be).Tychicus wrote:Getting back to Eph 2 I noticed that all the verbs in 2:7-9 are middle or middle-passive (2:7 show, come; 2:8 saved; 2:9 boast).
So I wonder if verse 8 could be translated, "For by grace you are being saved through faith, and this [salvation is] not from you; [it is] the gift of God."
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Ephesians 2:8
Hi Paidion,
My version of Mounce is copyright 1993, 2003, so apparently yours is the first edition. My version also had the quotes in sections 25.15 and 25.16 (instead of 25.13 and 25.14 in your version) so it also was expanded to include extra sections.
Yes, the εστε is active; thanks for pointing that out. The combination of active "be" verb and the perfect participle is called a periphrastic. Mounce talks about this (at least in my version); actually I just noticed the "Exegetical Insight" in Chapter 30 (Perfect Participles and Genitive Absolutes) discusses Eph 2:8 and comes out with the same translation you have:
I find that translation (or interpretation) appealing since I don't believe a person's salvation is totally completed at one point of time in their life. On the other hand it is always dangerous to read in your theology to a Bible verse, and as much as I like the idea of "being saved" I don't think that interpretation does justice to what Paul is trying to say.
The point of the perfect tense is to indicate completed action, so I don't see how that translation can be justified. Besides, no Bibles translate the verse that way including Mounce's interlinear. Furthermore I am not aware of any other perfect periphrastics being translated as continuatives like this (not that I know that much, but I would like to see one if it exists). Wallace does not mention this possibility, though he does like the KJV present tense "are ye saved"; see p 574-575 if you have access to his book.
It is intriguing to think about the timing of a person's faith and their salvation. A person who believes in "once saved, always saved" would have to say
If you don't go with that view (and I don't), how would you explain the timing? In particular how do you explain the idea of your salvation being a completed event (as I do)? (Assuming you believe it is a completed event.)
By the way Mounce’s Exegetical Insight (with the “are being saved” translation) actually does believe salvation (justification) is a completed event, and uses the “are being saved” sense to refer to sanctification. This wasn’t written by Mounce himself (he had others write the Insight sections). It seems pretty obvious that this justification-sanctification stuff is just Baptist theology being read into Eph 2:8, nothing you can get out of the passage by Bible exegesis. As I mentioned before, Mounce’s interlinear has the typical “have been saved”.
My version of Mounce is copyright 1993, 2003, so apparently yours is the first edition. My version also had the quotes in sections 25.15 and 25.16 (instead of 25.13 and 25.14 in your version) so it also was expanded to include extra sections.
Yes, the εστε is active; thanks for pointing that out. The combination of active "be" verb and the perfect participle is called a periphrastic. Mounce talks about this (at least in my version); actually I just noticed the "Exegetical Insight" in Chapter 30 (Perfect Participles and Genitive Absolutes) discusses Eph 2:8 and comes out with the same translation you have:
Does the first version also have this section?For by grace you are being saved through faith.
I find that translation (or interpretation) appealing since I don't believe a person's salvation is totally completed at one point of time in their life. On the other hand it is always dangerous to read in your theology to a Bible verse, and as much as I like the idea of "being saved" I don't think that interpretation does justice to what Paul is trying to say.
The point of the perfect tense is to indicate completed action, so I don't see how that translation can be justified. Besides, no Bibles translate the verse that way including Mounce's interlinear. Furthermore I am not aware of any other perfect periphrastics being translated as continuatives like this (not that I know that much, but I would like to see one if it exists). Wallace does not mention this possibility, though he does like the KJV present tense "are ye saved"; see p 574-575 if you have access to his book.
It is intriguing to think about the timing of a person's faith and their salvation. A person who believes in "once saved, always saved" would have to say
and alsoMy salvation occurred at the moment I accepted Christ.
In other words their salvation is not based on their (current) faith, but on the faith they used to have, specifically on the day they "accepted Christ".My salvation is based on the faith I had at the moment I accepted Christ.
If you don't go with that view (and I don't), how would you explain the timing? In particular how do you explain the idea of your salvation being a completed event (as I do)? (Assuming you believe it is a completed event.)
By the way Mounce’s Exegetical Insight (with the “are being saved” translation) actually does believe salvation (justification) is a completed event, and uses the “are being saved” sense to refer to sanctification. This wasn’t written by Mounce himself (he had others write the Insight sections). It seems pretty obvious that this justification-sanctification stuff is just Baptist theology being read into Eph 2:8, nothing you can get out of the passage by Bible exegesis. As I mentioned before, Mounce’s interlinear has the typical “have been saved”.