What is included in the atonement?

[Homer]

Paidion,

I hardly know what to think. You dismiss Hick's paper after one sentence? If you had read a bit further you would have understood his point (well, maybe not). You would have seen that he referenced Romans 5:11 regarding "reconciliation" to explain what the "atonement" accomplished (English word; I did not see a reference to a Greek word in his entire paper).

More than a little ironic that you chastise his use of the English word "atonement", seeing you do not believe there was one, and then you misuse it to refer people to your booklet. Why don't you just say "there was no atonement" and then refer people to your booklet?

[Paidion]

Homer, under what rules of logic do you transverse from "I didn't get further than the first sentence" (without dealing with it) to "I dismissed Hick's paper after one sentence"?

[Paidion]

More than a little ironic that you chastise his use of the English word "atonement", seeing you do not believe there was one, and then you misuse it to refer people to your booklet. Why don't you just say "there was no atonement" and then refer people to your booklet?

What do you mean by affirming that I don't believe that there was an atonement? There are many atonements. Every time a person makes amends or reparation for wrongdoing, there is an atonement. Look in any English dictionary, and you will find this the definition of "atonement". It is in this sense that I don't think Christ's sacrifice was an atonement. Do you think it is? If so, then Christ made amends for our wrongdoing. Normally, if we have done wrong, we need to repent, and change our ways. But if Christ made amends for us, if He paid the price, then we owe nothing. We don't have to make amends.

If I bat a ball through my neigbour's window, he may tell me, "You are going to have to atone for that!" But if my father, through an agreement, has already paid for any windows I may break, I owe the neighbour nothing. My father has already paid the price, and so I can break windows with impunity — at no cost to myself.

Furthermore, I didn't "refer people to my booklet". I referred Sam to my booklet, because he asked for "suggestions of articles or books to understand all the views of atonement". Christ's sacrifice is popularly referred to as "the atonement", and so I believe in "the atonement" in the sense that I believe in Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.

Several "theories of atonement" are not actually theories of atonement. Two examples:

1. The Example Theory of the Atonement.
Through repentance and self-reformation, a person can better his moral condition. Christ's example of righteousness and faithfulness has a powerful influence on our moral improvement.

2. The Moral Influence Theory of the Atonement
The purpose of Christ's suffering and death was to soften human hearts so as to lead them to repentance.

In neither of these theories does Christ's death serve in making amends to God for our wrongdoing. Yet they are called "theories of the atonement".

[PR]

Paidion, perhaps you've already answered this question before, but would you mind sharing what your understanding of what the purpose or reason for Christ's crucifiction on the cross was.

I'm not fully understanding what your view is. Not looking to debate, just wanting to understand your position...

Thanks

Phil

[Paidion]

The simplest answer, Phil, is that through Christ's death we are enabled by God's grace to overcome wrongdoing and to live righteous lives. I gained this understanding from the words of Peter, Paul, and the writer to the Hebrews. They tell us why Christ died:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1. So Peter stated that Christ endured the crucifixion so that we might have the ability to die to sin and live to righteousness.
2. Paul stated in Romans 14:9 that Christ died for this purpose: that He might be Lord, that is, that He might be our master, our supreme authority in our lives.
3. Paul stated in Titus 2:4 that Christ gave Himself for us (in the crucifixion) in order to purify us, and give us a mindset to do good deeds, in other words to regenerate us so that we would become a new creation with new desires and new purposes.
4. The writer to the Hebrews stated that Christ came in order to do away with sin completely, through his supreme sacrifice on the cross. That process began with those who have submitted to Him and have become His disciples, and will be completed when ALL PEOPLE have submitted to Him, if not in this life, then surely in the next. For:

... we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe. (I Timothy 4:10)

When all people submit to Christ's authority, and are fully saved (delivered) from sin, God will truly be the Saviour of all people. But those who submit to Him in this life are especially saved in that they won't have to endure the refining fires of Gehenna (or "hell" if you will).

The chorus in "Come, Now is the Time to Worship" reflects this thought:

One day ev'ry tongue will confess You are Lord
One day ev'ry knee will bow
Still the greatest treasure remains for those,
Who gladly choose you now.

Though the day will come when every individual will confess Jesus as Lord (Rom 4:11; Philip 2:10), those who gladly choose Him now will have the greatest treasure.

[PR]

Thanks Paidion.