The Role of Hell in the Gospel Message?

[jriccitelli]

Paidion wrote; 'But none of the above proclaimed hell while they preached the gospel. The gospel is GOOD NEWS —— not bad news'
The Gospel is the answer to the bad news (still hell is 'in' the Gospels!). You seem to think the bad news is 'not' so bad. In fact you are proclaiming good news that is 'not' from the bible, or in the Gospel; You are 'adding' that people are released from death, and also from after death punishment (whatever you want to call it). This would be a 'different' good news than what is contained in the Biblical Gospel, this is another gospel.

John, Paul, Peter and Jesus all experienced the bad news, every human will die (if they have not died already). "In the day you eat of it you will die". Death has reigned from Adam, and it was the 'punishment' for disobeying Gods law, all have sinned. The bad news is pretty clear to everyone.
Seems to me that It was the Serpent who said "You surely will not die", not Jesus.

If there was no 'Gospel' then all we would have is the bad news; 'death'. Where in the Bible, or for that matter where in the world do you suppose we should turn to for good news regarding death?

'Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world' (Ephesians 2:12)

As for after death punishment it certainly seems to included in the Gospels I have in my Bible, no matter how many people refuse to believe it.
Again you cannot turn every reference to hell or fire into a refiners fire, try believing that the next time you see something on fire, what happens to things on fire, right, the result is always the same, destruction not improvement.

[jriccitelli]

Paidion wrote; 'And hell is not synonymous with punishment, though it includes corrective "punishment"

So then you agree hell 'is' synonymous with punishment. I do not know where Jesus warns people of being thrown into corrective punishment, you may have a different version than I've seen.
Sure, death is the ultimate punishment for sin, but God continues to add more penalties (Gen 3:16-19) and God continues for 30 more books to add punishments, again I do not know how you have inserted 'corrective' before all of Gods punishments, this would be interesting, lets try it;
"But from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely suffer corrective punishment" (Gen.2:17. New Corrective Version)

"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him without corrective punishment who takes His name in vain. (Exodus 20:5-7 NCV)

"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to corrective punishment.13 But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint you a place to which he may flee.14 If, however, a man acts presumptuously toward his neighbor, so as to kill him craftily, you are to take him even from My altar, that he may go to corrective punishment" (Exodus 21:12-14 NCV)

'Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them.2 And a refiners fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they went off to corrective punishment before the LORD' (Lev.10:1-2 NCV)

'If there is a man who lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put into corrective punishment; they have committed incest, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.13 If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put into corrective punishment. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.14 If there is a man who marries a woman and her mother, it is immorality; both he and they shall be burned with refiners fire and put into corrective punishment, so that there will be no immorality in your midst.15 If there is a man who lies with an animal, he shall surely be put into corrective punishment; you shall also put the animal into corrective punishment' (Lev.20:12-15 NCV)

'Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;10 but repays those who hate Him to their faces, to destroy them; He will not delay with him who hates Him, He will show them corrective punishment to their face' (Deuteronomy 7:9-10 NCV)

'Zion will be redeemed with justice And her repentant ones with righteousness.28 But transgressors and sinners will be crushed together, And those who forsake the LORD will go off to corrective judgment together. (Isaiah 1:27-28 NCV)
The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard
And it totters like a shack,
For its transgression is heavy upon it,
And it will fall, never to rise again.
21 So it will happen in that day,
That the LORD will correctively punish the host of heaven on high,
And the kings of the earth on earth.
22 They will be gathered together
Like prisoners in the dungeon,
And will be confined in prison;
And after many days they will be correctively punished.
23 Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed' (Isaiah 24:19-23 NCV)

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not have to endure corrective punishment in order to have eternal life.17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved from corrective punishment through Him.18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe will be sent off to corrective punishment, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God' (John 3:16-18 NCV)

[Paidion]

Paidion wrote; 'And hell is not synonymous with punishment, though it includes corrective "punishment"

So then you agree hell 'is' synonymous with punishment.

How does it follow that I agree hell is synonymous with punishment?
North America includes Mexico. Does that imply that North America is synonymous with Mexico?

[jriccitelli]

I was 'half' joking. You must be thinking half of hell is for corrective punishment, ok then, what is the other part of hell for?
If hell is not 'all' punishment then what else is it? A sitting room? A reading room? A dude ranch, what?
I cannot see any way that hell could be anything but a punishment.
I may have missed the verses you have to support your view that hell is restorative, (I am serious, I don’t know).
But how come you do not address the other point(s) I made like; how it is that it is the serpent's line that 'You surely will 'not' die'?
Likewise, I do not recall how you respond to a verse like Matthew 10:28; "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"
Which like other verses are in the 'Gospels', and I might add 'for a reason'.
The reason - For the Role of Hell in the Gospel Message - a warning that God will judge all sin, so people will repent, and believe the Gospel...

'… But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (Matt 3:7)

'…And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish' (Luke 13:1-2)

'…Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord' (Acts3:19)

[psimmond]

I like how Dale Fincher talks about presenting the gospel in his book "Coffee Shop Conversations: Making the Most of Spiritual Small Talk."

He says,

Augustine defined sin as a twisting of what is good, like taking the Mona Lisa and painting horns on her. Sin takes a good thing, like a chocolate cake, and uses it wrongly, lacing it with arsenic. Sin takes the goodness of sexual passion and uses it for the wrong person, at the wrong time. Sin always preys on the good.

And

Understanding sin helps us explain why our personal evil choices hurt us and others. In sharing with your friends, sin doesn't need to be a negative word. It's the diagnosis for what ails humans. With the biblical meaning, we can explain this lost word and more easily talk about a cure.

We can talk about coming judgment, but I think letting people know their diagnosis and then sharing the cure (how to be set free from sin) may be enough for many people.

[Homer]

Hi psimmond,

We can talk about coming judgment, but I think letting people know their diagnosis and then sharing the cure (how to be set free from sin) may be enough for many people.

But aren't they sinning because it is what they want to do? Because they find pleasure in it? It is not as though they are unaware of what they are doing. Seems to me being made aware of consequences can be beneficial. Jesus rather regularly emphasized consequences, and very bad consequences at that.

Perhaps you meant prognosis rather than diagnosis. But according to universalism their prognosis is very good.

[jriccitelli]

Before I was a christian, a guy I ran into (I still see him around) asked me if I would like to go to Hawaii, he said (in effect) 'if you accept Jesus you can have whatever you want', which I guess included also going on a trip to Hawaii. I did not convert on that advice.
I think the idea of conversion to Jesus so that we can have a better life has produced nothing but dissatisfied and disillusioned conversions. Jesus never promised anyone a rose garden.
Unless a person understands the punishment put upon Christ was the punishment for sins, then he does not understand the Gospel.
Seems to me that the preaching of the Gospel is; Christ died for our sins, in our place, He took Gods wrath on sin upon Himself. God's wrath and punishment for sin - if you leave that out of the Gospel - it is not the Gospel.

Hell (or whatever we want to call it) is where we go if we do not believe what God has said. Is the death and torture of Christ good news - no - the good news is that God died so with the intent to make us think, and consider 'how great a love He has for us' even though we were sinners and enemies.
Please tell me; What else is there but death and punishment for sinners?

People know the answer, but they refuse to believe it. For us to omit the reality of judgment and penalties for sin in a presentation of the Gospel, renders the Gospel meaningless, and does nothing to convict the world of sin. In fact, leaving out punishment gives sin the green light.
And this is exactly what is happening, unrepentant sin and promiscuity everywhere. Health and Wealth gospels, positive thinking, success and happy life gospels dominate christian thinking, why?

In contrast, Jesus said;
'He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal' (John 12:25)

(By the way God 'has' blessed me, in fact I have roses and a large garden, but it is in the midst of struggle and trouble. My life is 'surrounded' with troubles, but each day with God I am triumphant, and more importantly in love with God, and I might add my wife and friends)

(A better life comes from knowing Gods will, Gods will is that we be holy, separated from sin. A better life comes from eliminating sin, strife, anger, temptation, controlling desires, and from a 'RIGHT' relationship with God)

[Singalphile]

There's a pretty nice 2001 article here about this topic: www.firstthings.com - Will All Be Saved? (The author was a Roman Catholic who died in 2009 *.)

Some quotes:

The command and impulse to evangelize is premised not on the bad news that we do not know but on the good news (i.e., “gospel”) that we do know. To be sure, good news may be good in relation to the bad, but there is enough bad news that we know for sure that we do not need to pretend to know more bad news than we do in order to make the good news good.

It follows, he contends, that, without the damnation of many, perhaps of most, there is no point in being a Christian. This, I suggest, is profoundly wrongheaded and spiritually perverse. ... It is doubtful that one could really want life with God forever if one does not want life with God here and now.

[Homer]

Singalphile,

A more complete context from which you quoted:

One critic goes so far as to write about all the wrong things that he would really like to do, that he would prefer to do over what he is doing, and that he would do, were it not for the fear of eternity in hell. It follows, he contends, that, without the damnation of many, perhaps of most, there is no point in being a Christian. This, I suggest, is profoundly wrongheaded and spiritually perverse. For one thing, one cannot rationally and knowingly choose to live contrary to God's will, since to do so is contrary to one's own nature, which nature is to live in accord with God's will. One avoids sin because to sin is to act against God and against oneself, not because, or not chiefly because, of the threat of future punishment. More precisely, punishment, understood as damnation, is the culmination of having lived against one's highest good, namely, God. It is doubtful that one could really want life with God forever if one does not want life with God here and now.

Do you see the underlined as true? Consider the iconic sinner, Hugh Hefner. It is my belief that he is living exactly in accord with his nature. We all need a new nature, to be born again, otherwise our nature tends toward self, not toward God's will.

Years ago I subscribed to First Things - lots of interesting things there.

[Paidion]

Consider the iconic sinner, Hugh Hefner. It is my belief that he is living exactly in accord with his nature.

George MacDonald didn't see it that way. He wrote:

Evil is not human; it is the defect and opposite of the human; but the suffering that follows it is human, belonging of necessity to the human that has sinned: while it is the cause of sin, suffering is for the sinner, that he may be delivered from his sin. (The Hope of the Gospel, Salvation from sin)