The Role of Hell in the Gospel Message?

[Singalphile]

Thank you also, Paidion. Both very helpful.

[dwilkins]

Hello dwilkins. You wrote that "Christ did not refer explicitly, directly to a final punishment of all unbelievers at any time in his ministry." It seems to me like Jesus does so in Matthew 25. Do you have another view on what Jesus is talking about there, or would you just not call that explicit and direct (but parabolic/symbolic)?

dwilkins wrote:
In that sense, a final, permanent negative state is a key part of the Gospel, but it's name isn't "hell", it's the Lake of Fire.

A final, permanent negative state or event is probably a pretty good description, I guess. I'm not really sure how key it is to the overall gospel message. I agree that the "lake of fire" is what is usually, really meant when we talk of "hell". However, it seems to me that the "lake of fire" is Revelation's symbolic description (in a book of symbols) for what is explained to actually be "the second death". So the label of the topic should perhaps really be "The Role of the Second Death in the Gospel Message".

(Of course a full preterist or maybe an idealist might not interpret Rev 20 as having anything to do with the so-called afterlife.)[/quote]

I should have been more careful in the way I described Christ's teaching. Since my previous points had been directly tightly against the terms Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna, what I meant to say is that in none of the uses of those terms does Christ refer to final punishment. On the other hand, in the Sheep and Goats judgment of Matt. 25 he probably does refer to the same event as the Great White Throne judgement and Lake of Fire from Rev. 20, though not explicitly by name. Part of my post was a reference to death and destruction as the destiny of the unbelieving dead throughout the Old Testament. In that sense, I think that those who say that Old Testament scripture doesn't speak to a final negative judgment in the afterlife of individuals miss this theme. They are correct to say that the Old Testament doesn't speak to eternal torture, but everlasting death is the consistently proposed destiny of unbelievers after death. It might be helpful to take a look at Psalm 9, where a final judgment and then return to death is proposed as the destiny of unbelievers.

Doug

[Singalphile]

Thanks for the clarification, dwilkins. I think I agree with everything you're saying... you know, more or less.

Paidion and steve7150, here's what I took from your posts in response to my question:

(And I do understand that you couldn't describe every detail of your views.)

1. steve7150: I take it that you think that everything seen or said after Rev. 20 necessarily describes something that will take place (or be true) after the second death. In that case, I can see why you say what you said. Whether or not that's correct is for another thread, I guess. So, differing views of those chapters affects our views of "hell".

2. You both would say, I think, that the "second death" is the symbolic description of what is actually (literally?) a lake of fire. I thought it was the other way around; the "lake of fire" symbolizes what is actually, literally the second death (of those people who are "thrown into" it). Either way matters little to me, but I am glad to be aware of that difference, because it hadn't occurred to me. I did note, too, that Paidion wrote "flames" in quotes, which would indicate that he thinks that both descriptions are symbolic. So, you would have a symbolic description, the "second death", of another symbolic description, the "lake of fire". That's not impossible, certainly. It may be kind of like the two "witnesses"/"olive trees"/"lamp stands" back in Rev 11. That the "2nd death"/"lake" would in fact turn out to be a temporary correctional facility or state is, of course, another matter.

3. Finally, I noted that the "death" in "second death" was not touched on much, if at all. Paidion came close to it, I think by saying that "God Himself is 'a consuming fire', consuming and destroying all impurities". I take that to mean that that which dies in your "lake of fire"/"second death" is sin or the sin nature or the selfish self (like Romans 6)? Is that what ya'll would say? So the first death for these people is physical death and the "second death" is dying to sin (i.e., salvation)?

Thanks, again. Sorry for all the questions. You've made me late for work!

Have a great day!

[steve7150]

I should have been more careful in the way I described Christ's teaching. Since my previous points had been directly tightly against the terms Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna, what I meant to say is that in none of the uses of those terms does Christ refer to final punishment. On the other hand, in the Sheep and Goats judgment of Matt. 25 he probably does refer to the same event as the Great White Throne judgement and Lake of Fire from Rev. 20, though not explicitly by name. Part of my post was a reference to death and destruction as the destiny of the unbelieving dead throughout the Old Testament. In that sense, I think that those who say that Old Testament scripture doesn't speak to a final negative judgment in the afterlife of individuals miss this theme. They are correct to say that the Old Testament doesn't speak to eternal torture, but everlasting death is the consistently proposed destiny of unbelievers after death. It might be helpful to take a look at Psalm 9, where a final judgment and then return to death is proposed as the destiny of unbelievers.







I looked at Psalm 9 and i'm not sure what translation you used but "forever" may be the hebrew word "olam" which means "age" and "hell" is really "sheol" which means grave. So i see destruction but not necessarily an eternal judgment.
Matt 25.46 we have discussed many times here and
it does seem like the great white throne judgment. My answer would be that the righteous already have immortality and the unrighteous go into "aionios" punishment. The issue has been what "aionios" actually means, and we have had varying opinions which usually are connected to ones view of hell. I think "aionios" or "aion" relate to an undefined amount of time which relate to the context and circumstances involved.

[steve7150]

1. steve7150: I take it that you think that everything seen or said after Rev. 20 necessarily describes something that will take place (or be true) after the second death. In that case, I can see why you say what you said. Whether or not that's correct is for another thread, I guess. So, differing views of those chapters affects our views of "hell".





Yes to me it seems generally sequential after Rev 20 unless there is a compelling reason not to view the events that way. Death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death, yet events still continue after this, at least as i understand it.