Does anyone else think part of the reason the church in America is not in revival mode is not solely based, or even majorly centered around, the decline in government or the overall morality of the population?
I really believe it is the decline of the church and of our understanding of the kingdom of God. I have been listening to the kingdom of God series by Steve, and I really think if the church and the people of God would wakeup from our stupor of not recognizing Jesus as fully Lord and serve Him in order to find that joy in Him, can we represent the changed lives that should be present in the children of the King. I think His principles are simple in understanding (though a sacrifice in practice). Loving Him; that being shown by our obedience to Him and an over pouring of gratefulness that people can see and realize. I really think dispensationalism, where I have heard said, "well if this is Jesus' kingdom, I don't want any part in it," is blinding to the reality of the kingdom.
I also think it is also a near falsehood to simply preach, found so often in mainstream churches (of all types where I am), "come here, believe this message, and go about your normal business because Jesus died for you, and as long as you have checked that box you are good to go because, hey, "no one is perfect."
We have turned it into something easy because we know God has put into man, as being made in His image, the desire to give. I think this sources from our desire to be wanted, and we should all be meeting that need in others because we have received that ultimate fulfillment. We settle for the best in our world (and there is an _abundance_ here), and hope to one day have the best in "Heaven," that is "far off." It is here in our midst and is open for all to come. In order to show what Christ has done to us by filling that God-size gap, we should be representing that love to others so that they can if even get just a taste of the goodness of the Lord. If that doesn't happen in this country, I see an ultimate decline and in it as well as a gross misrepresentation to the lovingkindness of Him to the people around us.
I don't mean to sound so harsh towards dispensationalism, when I first accepted the Lord I poured through the Left Behind series and soaked it up. It was a painful transition in leaving that belief because it is like putting on new glasses and seeing something through a difference lens (that you were 'raised in'). I don't say I have reached some higher elevation, I don't think truth is like that (obviously I consider what I believe to be as truth or I wouldn't believe it), but I no there are flaws in my truth and I proceed with that understanding. I just think I have reached a different conclusion.
Also, I know the other side, that a church could be doing the best job ever, and their own country still be in a decline if it were the will of God. But I wouldn't say that I could say this about our Church and I am guilty of all.
revival
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backwoodsman
- Posts: 536
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Re: revival
Something I wrote elsewhere a while back:
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In recent times I've come to understand that true spiritual revival is very different from the way it's commonly understood among Christians today.
Some time ago I came across an autobiography in which I saw a spirituality and relationship with God, the likes of which I've seen only dim shadows of in my own life, or anywhere else in my lifetime. I found and read many other autobiographies and biographies looking for that quality, in order to learn what made these people tick spiritually and how to make it happen in me and those around me. In some I found it; and in others I saw good people who loved the Lord and gave their lives to God's service, but didn't have that certain quality I saw in some.
As it happened, many of these people were missionaries to China, and this reading led me to an account of a revival that swept over northeast China from about 1905-1915. I noticed the revival was strongest where the Christians were farthest from God -- sometimes even to the point of bitter feuds between missionaries and native leaders, or between the missionaries themselves. But I also noticed that it didn't touch some places and some people -- the very people, or their associates, in which I saw that certain deeper spirituality. They didn't get revival, because they didn't need it. They put a high priority on a continuous closeness and fellowship with God and with each other, and so lived in a constant state of ongoing revival, day by day. But they didn't see this as a goal, but simply as the normal condition of a Christian, and a necessary precondition for everything else.
Recently I read a little book, the premise of which can be summed up in one sentence: Revival is not something special, it's simply the state God intends to be normal for Christians. It's a good book, but it's incomplete. As I read it, I realized it misses something very important. It describes a revival in Africa that as of the last chapter had been ongoing for over 50 years, yet there was still a need for foreign missionaries. By then, the native church should've been on its 2nd or 3rd generation of spiritually mature native leaders, and should've long since no longer needed missionaries. But they never grew spiritually -- they were perpetually in the initial brokenness and repentance stage of revival, and never went on to maturity in the deeper things of God. No one recognized this -- not the natives, or the missionaries, or the foreign observers. They all misunderstood this condition as the goal, rather than simply the beginning of true revival.
I don't want half a revival -- I want the whole thing, and not just in myself, but in everyone who will accept it.
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Someone responded:
I no longer like the word "revival" as it has come to mean something entirely different that what I want for my own life. Discipleship is rather what should be going on in the body of believers known as the "church" and in the communities in which we live and work. Staying on the "milk" of the Word (as the church mentioned above from Africa) is not how we are supposed to live and move as Believers in the One True God. We are supposed to grow, to out-grow the milk and desire the meat. To never stop learning and growing, to become Spiritual Giants I guess you could say!
To revive literally means to give life back to something, implying that it once had life and has lost it or nearly lost it. It's a sad state when the "church" needs to be "revived".
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And my response:
Good point about discipleship. But the church is full of people -- and leaders -- who have no idea what discipleship is, yet think themselves spiritually mature, or at least OK right where they are. They need revival, unless perhaps they never had life to begin with, in which case they need salvation; but most will never get either because they're so sure they don't need them. As you say, it's a sad state the church is in.
But I need revival too, if in a different way. I think it's a good word for what I need to help me span a little of the distance from where I am to where those people I mention above were. I need a lot more of their single-minded focus and dedication to following God, and I need to make sure it doesn't fade with time, as it so often does.
But revival isn't the goal, it's just the first step. You're right, discipleship is what the church needs, and where each of us needs to set our sights.
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In a nutshell, I don't think it really has anything to do with morality of the country, how hard we pray for revival, how good a job some church is doing, or anything else except one thing: I think we don't see revival because so few Christians have any idea what discipleship is anymore, or for that matter, what revival is.
-------
In recent times I've come to understand that true spiritual revival is very different from the way it's commonly understood among Christians today.
Some time ago I came across an autobiography in which I saw a spirituality and relationship with God, the likes of which I've seen only dim shadows of in my own life, or anywhere else in my lifetime. I found and read many other autobiographies and biographies looking for that quality, in order to learn what made these people tick spiritually and how to make it happen in me and those around me. In some I found it; and in others I saw good people who loved the Lord and gave their lives to God's service, but didn't have that certain quality I saw in some.
As it happened, many of these people were missionaries to China, and this reading led me to an account of a revival that swept over northeast China from about 1905-1915. I noticed the revival was strongest where the Christians were farthest from God -- sometimes even to the point of bitter feuds between missionaries and native leaders, or between the missionaries themselves. But I also noticed that it didn't touch some places and some people -- the very people, or their associates, in which I saw that certain deeper spirituality. They didn't get revival, because they didn't need it. They put a high priority on a continuous closeness and fellowship with God and with each other, and so lived in a constant state of ongoing revival, day by day. But they didn't see this as a goal, but simply as the normal condition of a Christian, and a necessary precondition for everything else.
Recently I read a little book, the premise of which can be summed up in one sentence: Revival is not something special, it's simply the state God intends to be normal for Christians. It's a good book, but it's incomplete. As I read it, I realized it misses something very important. It describes a revival in Africa that as of the last chapter had been ongoing for over 50 years, yet there was still a need for foreign missionaries. By then, the native church should've been on its 2nd or 3rd generation of spiritually mature native leaders, and should've long since no longer needed missionaries. But they never grew spiritually -- they were perpetually in the initial brokenness and repentance stage of revival, and never went on to maturity in the deeper things of God. No one recognized this -- not the natives, or the missionaries, or the foreign observers. They all misunderstood this condition as the goal, rather than simply the beginning of true revival.
I don't want half a revival -- I want the whole thing, and not just in myself, but in everyone who will accept it.
---
Someone responded:
I no longer like the word "revival" as it has come to mean something entirely different that what I want for my own life. Discipleship is rather what should be going on in the body of believers known as the "church" and in the communities in which we live and work. Staying on the "milk" of the Word (as the church mentioned above from Africa) is not how we are supposed to live and move as Believers in the One True God. We are supposed to grow, to out-grow the milk and desire the meat. To never stop learning and growing, to become Spiritual Giants I guess you could say!
To revive literally means to give life back to something, implying that it once had life and has lost it or nearly lost it. It's a sad state when the "church" needs to be "revived".
---
And my response:
Good point about discipleship. But the church is full of people -- and leaders -- who have no idea what discipleship is, yet think themselves spiritually mature, or at least OK right where they are. They need revival, unless perhaps they never had life to begin with, in which case they need salvation; but most will never get either because they're so sure they don't need them. As you say, it's a sad state the church is in.
But I need revival too, if in a different way. I think it's a good word for what I need to help me span a little of the distance from where I am to where those people I mention above were. I need a lot more of their single-minded focus and dedication to following God, and I need to make sure it doesn't fade with time, as it so often does.
But revival isn't the goal, it's just the first step. You're right, discipleship is what the church needs, and where each of us needs to set our sights.
-------
In a nutshell, I don't think it really has anything to do with morality of the country, how hard we pray for revival, how good a job some church is doing, or anything else except one thing: I think we don't see revival because so few Christians have any idea what discipleship is anymore, or for that matter, what revival is.
Re: revival
I've noticed that you have been working on that series on the Wiki. Keep up the good work.jarrod wrote: I have been listening to the kingdom of God series...
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Singalphile
- Posts: 903
- Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:46 pm
Re: revival
Certainly, way too much emphasis on politics and/or entertainment and the immorality of both, while at the same time demonstrating little or no more love to others than the average non-believer. (A pretty obvious observation, that.)jarrod wrote:
Does anyone else think part of the reason the church in America is not in revival mode is not solely based, or even majorly centered around, the decline in government or the overall morality of the population?
I don't know that I'd point any blame to any particular variant of any end-times theory (e.g., dispensational futurism). At least for me, my general acceptance of that view in the past (b/c it was the only view I ever heard) had no effect on how I lived, as far as I know.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23
Re: revival
backwoodsman,
I must say, many of your words resonated deeply with me. I will probably re-read this shortly and have more thoughts.
I definitely think our (the Church) lives should be marked with Spirit-filled characteristics, but I agree that it is so much more than that. I am thinking about the Holy Spirit working in the lives of His people to awaken (revive) not only the Church, but everyone to the newness of life in Christ.
I must say, many of your words resonated deeply with me. I will probably re-read this shortly and have more thoughts.
I definitely think our (the Church) lives should be marked with Spirit-filled characteristics, but I agree that it is so much more than that. I am thinking about the Holy Spirit working in the lives of His people to awaken (revive) not only the Church, but everyone to the newness of life in Christ.
backwoodsman wrote:In a nutshell, I don't think it really has anything to do with morality of the country, how hard we pray for revival, how good a job some church is doing, or anything else except one thing: I think we don't see revival because so few Christians have any idea what discipleship is anymore, or for that matter, what revival is.
Re: revival
There have been many revivals in the past, but many of them were "flashes in the pan", short lived. Others unintentionally resulted in the formation of denominations — e.g. the Wesleyan Revivals.
How many revivals, if any, made a pronounced difference in the morality or altruism of an entire country?
How many revivals, if any, made a pronounced difference in the morality or altruism of an entire country?
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.