UR Consistent With Libertarian Free Will

[Paidion]

Does the possession of libertarian free will imply that it is impossible that all people sooner or later will repent and come under the lordship of Jesus? It seems the thinking is that if people have free will, then at least some will hold our forever. This may be theoretically possible while being practically impossible. It is theoretically possible to throw a fair die a million times only to have it turn up a six on every throw. But it's practically impossible. The reason that no one will be able to resist repentance forever is that we are talking about an infinite period of time here. Here on earth, there are influences on people to repent and submit, and some eventually do so while still in this life, while many go through life without doing so. A life time seems long to us, but it's usually a mere 70-90 years. But what if these influences continued for 1000 years? A far greater number might repent. How about a million years? A billion years? Eighty-twelve jillion years? The longer period, the larger will be the percentage will of those who repent. But will that percentage ever reach 100? Can some hold out forever so that it never will?

It may be intuitive to think so, but it's also intuitive to think that 0.999... is just a little bit less than 1. Most of us will refuse to believe that it's EXACTLY equal to 1. That's because it's so difficult for us to grasp the concept of inifity — to conceive of there being an INFINITE number of 9s after the decimal point. Our minds just can't comprehend infinity.

But it can be proved mathematically that .999... IS, in fact, EXACTLY equal to 1. Here is the proof:

Let n= .999...

Multiply each side of the equation by 10; then

10n=9.999...

Subtract n from the left side, and it's equivalent .999... from the right side

9n = 9.000...

Therefore n=1

So if an infinite number of 9s after the decimal point results in the number actually “arriving” at 1, then surely an infinite amount of time could result in all persons of their own free will ultimately being reconciled to God.

[Homer]

Paidion,

People aren't dice and we are not dealing with a math problem. How can you show from scriptures that they will not become hardened further? And that they will not be annihilated?

[mattrose]

I think Libertarian Free Will is inconsistent with dogmatic UR (everyone will be saved)

I think Libertarian Free Will is consistent with hopeful UR (everyone may be saved)

I don't think the increase of time (hundreds, thousands, millions of years) has much to do with it at all. The issue is not so much opportunity as direction. If one is moving (no matter the pace) away from God, then a year, a decade, a century, a millennium won't help the matter (they will only make things worse).

None of us live in hell, so some of our best parallels are hellish situations on earth (concentration camps, prisons, people on the show 'hoarders'). In all of these examples, there are some people who move toward God in the midst of these hellish situations and others that move further away.

Actually, I think the show Hoarders is a very good example. My wife watches it and I have now seen about a dozen episodes. These people slowly and methodically turned their homes into hellish places. Their family intervene, hoping to correct the behavior. Some of the hoarders break and start moving in a positive direction. But it seems about half of them, somehow, only harden further against the truth of their condition.

If this is possible on earth, I don't really understand how it could be impossible in hell.

And, as Homer said, that is without factoring in the case for eventual extinction anyways.

Frankly, I hope everyone does utilize their libertarian free will to repent in hell. I see no good reason why God would not embrace such people with open arms. But I also see enough evidence on earth, sadly, to remain open to the possibility that some, perhaps many, will only grow in their hardness of heart.

[Roberto]

All coming to God might theoretically be seen as happening through God's foreknowledge, not by coercion, no?

[Paidion]

I don't think the increase of time (hundreds, thousands, millions of years) has much to do with it at all. The issue is not so much opportunity as direction. If one is moving (no matter the pace) away from God, then a year, a decade, a century, a millennium won't help the matter (they will only make things worse).

Matt, you seem to be saying that evil can grow increasingly worse throughout eternity. Wouldn't that make evil infinite? And thus as a power in the universe on a par with God? I understand from the scriptures that God is going to destroy all evil. In order to do that, He will have to either destroy evil by winning all evil doers to Himself, or else annihilate those persons who would otherwise hold out forever (However, I think holding out forever is not practically possible).

[steve7150]

I don't think the increase of time (hundreds, thousands, millions of years) has much to do with it at all. The issue is not so much opportunity as direction. If one is moving (no matter the pace) away from God, then a year, a decade, a century, a millennium won't help the matter (they will only make things worse).







Do you think Paul's statement about the devil blinding the minds of unbelievers is hyperbole or that when Satan is gone unbelievers may see things differently?

[Paidion]

Steve 7150, are you sure it's the devil who blinds the minds of unbelievers?

Irenæus thought otherwise. He believed that the referent “of this world” modified “them” rather than “God.” He said that Paul actually meant, “In whom God has blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world.” He said, “From many other instances also, we may discover that the apostle frequently uses a transposed order in his sentences, due to the rapidity of his discourses, and the impetus of the Spirit which is in him.”

He gives another example with which, I am sure, everyone would agree.

... and then the lawless one shall be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall consume with the breath of his mouth, and shall annul by the appearing of His coming whose coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and signs and wonders of falsehood. (2 Thess 2: 8,9 Darby)

As it stands, it appears that the coming of of the Lord Jesus is according to the working of Satan.

Isn't it the case that Paul should have placed "whose coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and signs and wonders of falsehood" after the words "lawless one"? If so, would it not be reasonable to assume that Paul might have meant to place "of this worlds" after " ho theos" (God)? You can read Irenæus' explanation in Against Heresies, Book 3, Chap. VII.

Most translators solve the problem by inserting the words “even him” before the words “whose coming is according to the working of Satan.” So Irenæus states that the same “transposed order” occurs in 2 Cor. 4:4.

But would God blind people's eyes as Iremæus infers? The apostle John quotes Isaiah who said:

He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and turn for me to heal them. (John 12:40)

[Paidion]

Paidion,
People aren't dice and we are not dealing with a math problem.

You are stating the obvious. Am I not allowed to say that the eventual reconciliation to God of all free-will agents is similar to the mathematical fact that 0.999... if taken to an infinite number of decimal places is actually equal to 1.000...? Am I not permitted to use this mathematical fact to help us to understand that it is possible, if not practially inevitable, that all free-will agents will eventually place themselves under the authority of Christ?

Following your line of reasoning, one could say:

1. The Kingdom is heaven is not "a man who sowed good seed in his field." (Matthew 13:24)
2. The Kingdom is heaven is not " mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field." (Matthew 13:31)
We are not dealing with an agricultural problem.

3. The Kingdom is heaven is not "yeast which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened." (Matthew 13:33)
We are not dealing with a baking problem.

4. The Kingdom is heaven is not "a dragnet that was cast into the sea." (Matthew 13:47)
We are not dealing with a fishing problem.

5.The Kingdom is heaven is not "a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard." (Matthew 20:1)
We are not dealing with an employment problem.

6.The Kingdom is heaven is not "a treasure hidden in a field." Matthew 13:44)
We are not dealing with a real estate problem.

7.The Kingdom is heaven is not "a merchant seeking beautiful pearls." (Matthew 13:45 )
We are not dealing with a business problem.

8.The Kingdom is heaven is not "a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son." (Matthew 22:2)
We are not dealing with a marriage problem.

Jesus helped his hearers to understand the Kingdom of God (or of "heaven") by relating it to something that his hearers COULD understand.
Many people think that libertarian free will is not consistent with the eventual reconciliation of all people to God. I tried to show that it IS consistent by describing a mathematical parable.

[steve7150]

Steve 7150, are you sure it's the devil who blinds the minds of unbelievers?

Irenæus thought otherwise. He believed that the referent “of this world” modified “them” rather than “God.” He said that Paul actually meant, “In whom God has blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world.” He said, “From many other instances also, we may discover that the apostle frequently uses a transposed order in his sentences, due to the rapidity of his discourses, and the impetus of the Spirit which is in him.”




I do not know any greek but it seems inconsistent that God would send Jesus to be the Savior of the world, to die for our sins, to preach the gospel and the kingdom of God , yet God would also blind the mind of unbelievers. Not just some jews but "unbelievers" in general? Didn't Jesus say a house divided against itself will fall?

The rest of 2 Cor 4.4 reads "lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them." In other words if Irenaeus is right God would be fighting against Christ.

Now that you mentioned this i remember Harold Camping had the same view about this as Irenaous.

[Paidion]

But Steve, what about the apostle John's quote of Isaiah?

He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and turn for me to heal them. (John 12:40)

And what about:

as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.” (Romans 11:8)