Is Repentance A Work?

[steve7150]

The issue isn't "works" vs. "faith", it's "works of the Law" vs. "faith like Abraham"...



Thank you, I couldn't agree more. When you asked about where "definitions of works" were coming from earlier, I had a feeling this is what you had in mind.






Wherever we find final judgment of our earthly life we find it's our "works" that are judged. John 5.28-29 "done good" verses "done evil" , Matthew 25.40 "done it unto one of the least of these", Rev 20.12 "according to their works" , so it seems the "works" that manifest from repentance that manifests from faith are all tightly connected together like a chain and if our "works" are the weakest link in the chain, then the chain is as strong as it's weakest link.

[Paidion]

The difference between our views is that you are turning grace into an ‘enabling power’, a force of it’s own I suspect, rather than the Biblical definition of grace as simply forgiveness.

Tell me whether you can read your definition of "grace" into the following passage. Most people would say that this passage associates "grace" with "enablement."

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. Titus 2:11-15

[jriccitelli]

Does this ‘Enabling grace’ have a name, other than ‘Grace’?
Is this enabling grace a person or energy?
If enabling grace appeared, what would it look like?

[Paidion]

JR, I asked you to tell me whether you can read your definition of "grace" into the passage quoted from Titus 2.

When you have responded to this challenge, then I will answer your questions.

[jriccitelli]

Paul later uses the idea in Titus 3:4; Paul uses the word 'chrestotes'; (kindness, goodness, gentleness) instead of grace as he does in 2:11. 'Grace' appears, then 'Kindness' appears (appears is same in both), don't we see this all as the 'appearing' of Christ?

On Thu Jan 03, 2013, I referred to our discussion on this;

‘Maybe you do not believe ‘Enabling Grace’ is it’s own entity, but I think you have said so before under; "Lordship Salvation" on Sat Nov 17, 2012

And here is my rebuttal to your question back then about Titus 2:11 ('Lordship salvation' Sun Nov 18, page 7), again;

So when grace appeared, well it brings to mind the incarnation, as well as the resurrection. The appearing of our Lord and Savior - Jesus - is the Grace that has appeared - so when Paul repeats the idea in 3:4 Paul uses the word 'chrestotes'; (kindness, goodness, gentleness);

'But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness…' (Titus 3:4-5)

Is kindness a force? No
Is love a force? No
I see this (mistake / blasphemy) in Catholicism (and even to a degree in Calvinism), grace to Catholics is like points, or an object, or a power. It certainly is spoken of as if it is within Catholicism (How each person takes that I don’t know).
I am very familiar with the Word of Faith movement, and I see a exact duplicate here of this falsehood here in what Wof F teachers do with the word 'Faith' - they turn faith into a power or a force, an entity of it's own. Faith is not a power, either, this thinking then steps right into the occult, metaphysical and spiritist's realm when you assume there is a power you tap into other than God Himself. (Like Starwars; 'may the force be with you')
This is completely - demonic - there is no reasonable 'force' but God alone.
Love is not a 'thing', Patience is not a thing, Work is not a thing, Sin is not a thing, Wisdom is not a person, Faith is not a power, Grace is not a power, they are talked of in language 'as things' in order to get across an idea. Just because the Earth is spoken of as Gods footstool does not mean God has his feet up resting up on the north pole ('The trees clap their hands', etc. etc.).

'But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds' (Titus 3:4-8)

It is really no different when we express grace to someone, you can't have a good marriage without exercising grace to one another. My wife does not invoke some power or force when she forgives me, she knows she has been forgiven (in the Cross), and thus we forgive.
Forgiveness, grace, kindness, love... are expressions, acts, decisions, feelings, sure they are powerful but all things are in and from God, and there is no greater expression of love and grace and justice - but God Alone.

In that thread, you did not respond to this answer, but went on to debate me over the Trinity in your next post.

[Paidion]

I didn't respond to that post because I didn't see it as a rebuttal (and still don't). You still haven't indicated how you can read your definition of "grace" into the passage quoted from Titus 2.

I await your reply. When I have it, I will answer your three questions:

Does this ‘Enabling grace’ have a name, other than ‘Grace’?
Is this enabling grace a person or energy?
If enabling grace appeared, what would it look like?

[jriccitelli]

Ok, my definition of grace in Titus 2:11;
‘For Jesus has appeared for the salvation of all people’

I think the definition of grace was ‘already’ in the passage that follows verse 11; verse 13 (I don’t have to read my definition of grace into it, its already there). You might notice that Paul repeats the same statement of vs.11 in different terms in vs. 13;

For the grace of God has appeared (11)
the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ (13)

…for the salvation of all people (11)
…who gave himself for us to redeem us (14)

…training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives (12)
…to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works (14)

(This cost me a lunch break, because I wanted to see your responses to the questions I asked, hope my answer was enough)

[Paidion]

JR, you indicated in a previous post that "the Biblical definition of grace" is "simply forgiveness" without giving any justification for saying so. So I assumed that "forgiveness" is your personal definition of "grace." You still haven't shown how you read that definition into Titus 2:11-15. If you had, the verse would read as follows:

For the FORGIVENESS of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. Titus 2:11-15

Does it make any sense whatever that the forgiveness of God trains us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age? Of course, it doesn't. So clearly you realized that "forgiveness" could not be sensibly read into the passage, and so now have changed the phrase "grace of God" into the word "Jesus." Apparently you feel that it makes sense to say that Jesus has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety, etc. Yes, that does make sense. But it's not what the text says. The text says that it's the GRACE OF GOD has appeared for the salvation of all people, etc.

So, even though you were unable to read your definition of grace into the passage, I'll let you off the hook, and will answer your 3 questions notwithstanding.

Does this ‘Enabling grace’ have a name, other than ‘Grace’?

I suppose we could call it the "enablement of God", but that word alone would not include the element of God freely giving this enablement through the death and resurrection of His Son.

Is this enabling grace a person or energy?

I think these two options are not exhaustive. "Enabling grace" is definitely not a person. But it became available THROUGH a Person, the Lord Jesus — through His magnificent sacrifice of Himself on our behalf and for our benefit, so that we could be delivered from sin. I have never thought of this enabling grace as being energy, but it may be the energy of God for all I know. The angel said to Joseph, "You shall call His name Jesus ("saviour"), for He will save his people from their sins." I can't tell you how this enabling grace arises from Christ's sacrifice for us. I'm sure you would find it just as difficult to explain from your own point of view how Christ's sacrifice results in forgiveness of sins.

If enabling grace appeared, what would it look like?

What? Are you limiting the word "appears" to a physical appearance? Not everything which appears has a physical form. "to appear" also means "to become apparent" or "to become manifest." This is the way the word "appear" is used in the passage.

Wiktionary give the following as one of the defintions of "appear":

To become visible to the apprehension of the mind; to be known as a subject of observation or comprehension, or as a thing proved; to be obvious or manifest.

[jriccitelli]

Homer chimed in on the Lordship / enabling grace discussion that day;

Although not addressed to me, I will give my 2 cents: Grace came in the person of the Messiah, His birth, life, teaching, death, and resurrection… (Homer pg7 Nov 18)

I responded to this with;

Right on Homer, Grace came in the person of the Messiah, His birth, life, teaching, death, and resurrection. Homer noted that Jesus didn’t use the word grace much, true but to 'forgive' is what Jesus talked about all the time. (Me pg.7 Nov18)

The following day, Tychicus seemed to see what our definition was of Titus 2:11;

‘It seems everyone is agreeing that "grace" came in the person of the Messiah when He appeared in Palestine in the first century. (Tychicus pg.7 Nov19)

I did not then, or now, change my definition of Grace, and as I have said before; like most Sunday school questions the answer is always ‘Jesus’.

I have long made Soteriology my main pursuit and as having searched it upside down and backwards for 20 years, I am not 'jumping' to a conclusion on what grace is, as a teacher and evangelist I have come to know that in order to describe something it is best to use a picture or an example of grace rather than a dictionary meaning. That is what the Bible does it paints pictures, stories, and examples with real people and real situations. That is why after looking at the biblical definitions by example and picture, we see Grace through faith, an ‘act’ of mercy, an ’act’ of kindness, of pardon, gratitude, an act of Giving. The Giving of Himself for us ‘by which’ we obtained mercy and forgiveness, through faith. These are all woven together for sure and they cannot be separated from Him, from whom all things flow.
---------------

Paidion said; I have never thought of this enabling grace as being energy, but it may be the energy of God for all I know.

It is only 'by His Spirit'; our power is Him - His Spirit, grace is not an energy of God anymore than love is an energy. You are the one that is making it into something more than a metaphor for grace;

Paidion wrote; He overlooked theirs for the very reason that they were NOT empowered by the sacrifice of Christ. But we have no excuse since the enabling grace of God made available to us by Christ's sacrifice is now available to us. (Paidion pg6. Nov15)

Paidion wrote; You say "grace is not a power." It sure seems that Paul speaks of it as a power which trains us to renounce impiety. And did Paul in this passage say that the "cross", the death of Christ, "covered our sin"? I don't think so. (Paidion pg6 nov17)

[jriccitelli]

Biblical grace does not have any ‘easy’ definition, but ‘sometimes’ it is best to have a simple definition. I have come to see it best explained by Christ when He Forgives i.e. – ‘While’ hanging ‘on’ the Cross he says Father forgive them they know not what they do - The Woman caught in adultery - Which is easier to say? Your sins are forgiven, or rise and walk? – Joseph forgiving his brothers – To Abraham; I will provide a Ram - etc.

I see ‘pardon’ as a closer Biblical definition (but forgiveness is easier to communicate) since biblical definitions of Grace, Mercy and forgiveness are usually tied together, versus the common idea of ‘unmerited favor’ which in the bible is not necessarily accurate, as sin ‘must’ be atoned for with blood – it demanded a payment – the payment itself made forgiveness an act; ‘The Cross’. Grace is a ‘decision’ by the one who is in the position of granting grace. And pardon is based on an authorities judgment. Not without cost and not for nothing, we receive it by faith, by trusting, and in this sense faith is not a work but it is a merit.
So unmerited is not the definition I choose to use, because it tends to give the idea that; it has neither worth, it is easy, or is given without consideration of the recipient – it is to be ‘received’ through faith, with sincerity, to the ‘repentant’ and ‘wanting’.
There seems to be a prerequisite to receiving grace, that is; confession and repentance, at least;

A good man will obtain favor from the LORD,
But He will condemn a man who devises evil. (Prov.12:1)

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. (Matt. 5:7-8)

‘If you do not forgive others then your Heavenly Father will neither forgive you’

Is being ‘good’ a work? Is being ‘merciful’ a work? Is ‘forgiveness’ a work?
Is ‘needing’ grace a work?
Was ‘Grace’ a work, on Gods side?