We are saved from WHAT?

[dseusy]

Jeremiah,

I think I pretty much agree with you, but I'm confused by this statement...

You may equate the inward man with a soul or spirit, but I cannot.

If you don't equate the inner man with a spirit, are you tying it to the flesh?

Thank you for your very civil dialogue,

dseusy

[dseusy]

Paidion,

How do we avoid hypocrisy when we claim we are delivered from evil, yet keep on sinning? Have you ceased all sin? If you haven't you are guilty of breaking the whole law and remain evil.

I believe Paul's detailed explanation in Romans and Galatians clearly demonstrates we are delivered from the present evil age by being born again (1 Peter 1)- it is a spiritual birth... not a changing of the flesh's nature. Because 1 John states we deceive ourselves if we say we are without sin... but James still states if we stumble at one point we are guilty of all. The flesh still lusts against the Spirit. Abraham received the promise BEFORE he obeyed. Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews give multiple explanations of the Good News. Why having begun in the Spirit would we seek perfection in the flesh? (Galatians 3:3)

"for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God." Hebrews 7:19

"He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many." Hebrews 9:26b-28a

However, if you think I'm "out to lunch" I urge you to continue obeying God's commands because the Law is our tutor to bring us to Christ. Only, track your progress and honestly assess your performance compared to the command.

[dseusy]

Jeremiah wrote:
I would like to ask both you and JR to substantiate your use of,"the flesh profits nothing." I challenge both of you to go back to John 6 and consider whether you've quote mined that one, and stripped it of Jesus' meaning. And would you guys please explain why you think your being true to his meaning of: ...It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing. The words I speak to you are spirit and they are life.

"'Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.' 28 Then they said to Him, 'What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?' 29 Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.'" John 6:27-29

"Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." John 6:53-63

I've considered it and do not believe I have stripped it of Jesus' meaning. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is the Word. We eat Him, which to me means we eat the Word. I don't think it would have have done Peter any good if he took a bite of Jesus' flesh. Food which endures to everlasting life is the Word. Man cannot live by bread alone but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God. This is spiritually discerned and I believe when we don't lean on our own understanding but pray for help (Proverbs 3:5-6) and for wisdom (James 1) and believe He will give it, He will.

The work of God is to believe in Jesus. Mary chose what was better and it won't be taken from her. The Spirit gave her life but her flesh sat on its butt. "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

"Thus says the Lord: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the Lord."
Jeremiah 17:5

"Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'"
John 3:5-7

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find."
Romans 7:18

"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."
Galatians 5:17

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
Ephesians 6:12

"There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
1 Peter 3:21


Notice it doesn't say the filth ON or IN the flesh... it states the filth OF the flesh. How can we have a good conscience in this condition? I believe, as the Word (which is sharper than a two-edged sword) divides between that which is spiritual and that which is fleshly it reveals to us the mystery of the Gospel, the word of righteousness. Knowing I am already righteous (by credit) means my conscience can be completely clear of all offense despite myself (my outward self that is... my flesh). I can draw near to God... I can "come boldly to the throne of grace" because of Christ's work on my behalf.

2 Corinthians 4:16b
"Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day."

I am being true to the meaning God has spoken to me. However, it has changed over time... as I have matured (Hebrews 5:14) it has seemingly changed. However, God is unchanging but I believe His love meets us where we are at.

May God bless you abundantly, more than you could ask or imagine.

[Paidion]

You seem to be saying that no one can be righteous. How then can you receive eternal life?

That is exactly what I am saying. With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

John who wrote 1 John, believed that it was not only possible to be righteous, but that if you aren't righteous, you are not a child of God:

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as He is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:6-10 ESV)

John said that whoever practises righteousness IS righteous, not to let anyone deceive me on this point. So I won't. It's a matter of "practising righteousness" and not "practising sinning." Contrary to the Protestant and Fundamentalist "gospel", one doesn't go to hell because one has committed a single sin (or many sins) in the past. One goes to hell because one's nature if sin-sick, self-serving, and rebellious against God. Such a person must be changed, regenerated.The old self-serving person must be destroyed, and the new loving person who serves Christ and his fellow man must come forth. If it takes hell to do it, so be it!

As George MacDonald put it:
Not for any or all of his sins that are past shall a man be condemned; not for the worst of them does he need to fear remaining unforgiven. The sin in which he dwells, the sin of which he will not come out. That sin is the sole ruin of a man. His present live sins, those sins pervading his thoughts and ruling his conduct; the sins he keeps doing, and will not give up; the sins he is called to abandon, but to which he clings instead, the same sins which are the cause of his misery, though he may not know it --- these are the sins for which he is even now condemned.

Ecclesiastes 7:20
Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

No one in this forum is arguing against this, nor is anyone of us saying that he/she has never sinned. So to argue that everyone has sinned is attacking a strawman. What you need to try to establish, if I understand your point of view correctly, is that righteousness is unnecessary, that one can live as wicked, self-serving life full of hate and rebellion and still be "saved" through the blood of Christ. Do you really believe the following scenario is a probability on judgment day? Two very evil people, James and George appear before the LORD on that day. Both have raped and tortured and murdered. Neither has ever had a revolutionary change in his behaviour. The LORD consults his books. He announces, "James, I see that on February 17, 1990, you accepted Christ as your personal Saviour. Welcome to Heaven! Enter into the joys of the LORD! George, I see that you never did accept Christ. To hell with you! Off to eternal torment." It would be a most serious mistake to think that God cares about whether or not you "accepted Christ" thereby become "positionally righteous." God is not concerned about "positional righteousness"; He is concerned about actual righteousness.

You indicated that my quote of Romans 2;:6-10 is speaking to those under the law. Paul doesn't say that . He says that God will render to EVERYONE according to his works! Not only to those under the law, but to those under the New Covenant:

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, but glory and honour and well-being for
every one who does good to the Jew and also the Greek, for God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-10)

Dseusy, you quoted:

Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. (Romans 3:20-24)

The word translated "justified" is simply the verbal form of the noun translated as "righteousness." Sometimes this verb ought to be translated as "made righteous" or (if we need a single word) "righteousified". So by keeping or attempting to keep the law, no one can be righteous—actually righteous. This REAL righteousness comes only through Christ. This is exactly why Christ died.

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. (1 Peter 2:24 ESV)

So yes, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But we can be made righteous through the enabling grace made available through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Paul wrote to Titus about this enabling grace:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. Titus 2:11-15

So the grace of God TRAINS us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age. There is a NECESSITY for a change of life style! He said Christ gave Himself to redeem us from what? FROM ALL LAWLESSNESS! To PURIFY for Himself a people who are ZEALOUS FOR GOOD WORKS! This way of life is not optional; it is a requirement for each and everyone.
Jesus said, "Unless you forsake all and follow me, you CANNOT be my disciple." He didn't say that we would be a poor disciple, or a non-functional disciple. He said we couldn't be His disciple AT ALL!

You didn't answer my question, "Do you adhere to all of God's law?"

What do you mean by "God's law"? Are you referring to the Mosaic code? If so, then I unequivocally answer, "NO!"
If by "God's law" you mean the law of Christ as He taught it in Matthew 5, 6, and 7, then I reply that it is my intention to do so. Of course I have not done so perfectly throughout my life, but unless I coöperate with the enabling grace of God, I don't have a chance to move toward the perfection for which Christ asked us.
"Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Was Christ asking the impossible?

[dseusy]

Paidion,

In your endeavor, just make sure you become perfect. I urge you to consider your ways and keep looking into the law which brings liberty and do it.

"But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does." James 1:25

Be blessed,

dseusy

[dseusy]

I read some of the article by MacDonald... how is it unrighteous for the Father to lay the sins of a sinner on Christ when Christ VOLUNTARILY bears it? Justice was accomplished. Blood had to be spilt for the transgression of the law which embodies Love... and since I was the transgressor justice was coming against me. But the only One rich enough to pay my debt (my great wickedness against a Holy, righteous, and loving God) took my place at the chopping block... the cross.

Isaiah 53:11 NKJV

"He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities."

[jeremiah]

to John and Dseusy,
Regarding your takes on Jesus' statement about the words he spoke to them, what reasons would you give for not taking that statement plainly? your interpretations seem more like that of a parable and not of a plain explanation of what those words were to a person who wasn't really breathing.

I know this brief for not getting back to y'all in a while, and I won't be able to answer for probably another week. But still, I hope my question is clear enough.

God's blessings to you both...

[dseusy]

Jeremiah,

Which statement are you referring to?

[jriccitelli]

(From verse 6:26-58 Jesus describes Himself as the bread that came down from heaven, then in verses 59-65 the disciples can’t understand how they are going to eat Jesus and drink His blood)

John chapter 6, “… the flesh profits nothing”
Where in the Bible does the flesh ‘ever’ profit anything?
It’s the same thing through out the entire Bible; man sins over and over and over and over and over, God saves them again, again, again and again. The flesh profits nothing, God does all the saving, we just have to believe.
6:27 “Do not work for food that perishes”
6:28 “What shall we do...?
6:29 “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him”
6:30 “What sign will you give so that we believe you?”
6:31 "it is written "He gave them bread out of heaven to eat"
Jesus then goes on for the next 30 verses explaining how He is the bread that has come down from heaven, and by believing His Words we have Life eternal and Communion with God. Both these realities are expressed and combined by the one metaphoric idea of eating His Words and Sharing in the Communion supper, demonstrating that we both believe and accept Him as our passover meal and Lamb.

Jesus didn't come right out and say ‘I am the sacrifice that came down from heaven’ (John the Baptist said; behold the lamb of God), but Jesus does use some well established OT metaphors that can became very clear once He was crucified, yet difficult to imagine without Christ being yet sacrificed (Remember it was not understood by even the angels until 'after' it all happened).

Jesus repeats the mandate that unless you eat of His sacrifice, like the manna, you will not have life. It was no metaphor once Jesus’ was crucified. The only metaphor left remaining of John 6 was between His body the bread, and the Word – still symbolic. But the warning is not symbolic, for unless you believe that HE was The sacrifice that came down from God – the promise made to Abraham – you are still eating manna in the desert, and like they did, died in the desert (6:58). But if you believe, you will eat of His flesh and live forever, there is no other mandate here but believe.

So, having said that, verse 6:63 sums up all that Jesus and all that Scripture has been telling us from The Beginning; God creates Life. Man (flesh) does not create life and is unprofitable. The Word is the Spirit, the Word and the Spirit create Life (not the flesh), do you believe this?

Paidion trying to perfect the flesh is to make something of our dead corpse, we are told to sow to the Spirit, not the flesh. But you’ll never get there believing that the flesh and the spirit are the same thing. Most all creeds of Christianity that I know of agree we are to crucify the flesh, stop sinning, refuse to participate with sinners, be moral, strive to perfection, be like Jesus, be like God, keep the law of Moses if you want to, keep the law of Christ and fulfill every jot and tittle, but know that ‘trying’ to keep it of your own flesh will never work, it never has – that’s the law of the flesh – it wins. But with Christ all things are possible.

It is by His Spirit that we are made Holy, and by doing His Will with His Spirit living within us, we no longer are enslaved to the flesh.
So we keep His Commandments because He gives us His will and power, but to be 'perfect' is to be God, so we are perfect by living and believing 'in' Him. We live 'in' His grace because the flesh cannot please God, so we would not be able to live without Grace - His sacrifice for sins was our grace.

You keep insisting that ‘we’ don’t believe we are saved from our sins. I guess you have people refute being 'saved from our sins' because technically we all continue to sin, but without being 'technical'; Jesus does save us from ''all" things; sins, enemies, vanity, and the penalty of sin - Death. And true most people never seem to get that we are saved 'unto' good works. The warnings to not take the grace of God in vain is theirs to consider, and be warned - only God can save, and to assume salvation is accomplished and secured by our works would be unprofitable and vain.
Technically the spirit is saved from all this, but the flesh is not. The flesh will die under the penalty of sin. And until we loose this body we will suffer in it, from our own sin, from others sin, and from the sin of the world. That doesn’t mean we don’t live and strive to be perfect in the spirit, our works are evident ‘when we believe’. And believing, we ‘know’ that our food comes from God, not the world of the flesh.

You also seemed to imply that Christianity has considered the ‘flesh as evil’. Paul did not refer to or imply that flesh is evil, and it is a misnomer to think that Greek philosophy thought of the flesh as evil. Plato, Plutarch, Philo, and Seneca and Didymus (both contemporaries of Paul) do not go so far to say that the sarx is evil, or the cause of it, they even speak of it in good terms from time to time, so it is not some Greek notion of evil flesh that Christianity adopted because the Greeks didn’t hold this dogmatically either.
Rather like Paul they generally professed that the flesh is weak and desiring sin, but not naturally sinful.

[Paidion]

Paidion trying to perfect the flesh is to make something of our dead corpse...

Your quoted statement above seems to indicate that you have no idea of my understanding of salvation, which is the same gospel that Christ, Paul, Peter, and George MacDonald proclaimed, and which I tried to explain.

I presume by "flesh" you are referring to the fallen nature. I have never taught that one can even reform, let alone perfect the fallen nature. However, if you are talking about physical flesh, then what else is there to perfect? Some "spiritual" part of us that exists apart from the flesh? I have also stressed that this perfection is a work of God, His grace, combined with our coöperation with that divine grace.