We are saved from WHAT?

[jeremiah]

Hello John,

John chapter 6, “… the flesh profits nothing”
Where in the Bible does the flesh ‘ever’ profit anything?
It’s the same thing through out the entire Bible; man sins over and over and over and over and over, God saves them again, again, again and again. The flesh profits nothing,..

Broad brush statements like this are easy to deliver, but I would like to see you get through the Psalter only and still paint such a picture! Not all, but much of the time when we offer praise, thanksgiving, or requests to God, we do so with our lips. Is this unprofitable? Clothes that cover the naked and food given to the destitute are sewn and grown by human hands. Are these unprofitable? Or what about Genesis 2:24, Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. Is this joining also unprofitable? Or Genesis 2:7, And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Was God's gift of life to the first human a bad thing and also unprofitable? Am I arguing with the son of God himself? Not at all.

Nobody in this thread is saying the flesh and the spirit are the same thing. The flesh was designed by God to receive its sustenance, not produce it. It's this reception of spirit or breath that enables us to breathe, and hence be alive. When we stop receiving that breath, we die and our flesh corrupts. Jesus was not affirming the flesh to be useless, not at all. The flesh profits nothing to give life, for God made it to receive spirit and thereby be counted as alive.

I think a living, breathing human is what Paul has in mind when he tells us to "walk in the spirit", not a 'disembodied' ghost that hovers close enough to utilize the brain of the 'dead corpse' you seem to picture. Paul generally uses "the flesh" as a picture for that which is corrupted and corruptible of humanity in Adam. To walk according to the flesh is to live according to that old reality of being in Adam of whom we received the condemnation, when we were as Jesus put it, "dead". This picture then 'is' of a dead human, one who is not breathing but rather is a composting corpse. This I think, is a big difference between what you imagine we are saying, and what we are actually saying. Again, Paul's pictures are not a dead corpse and a ghost, but a dead corpse and a resurrected living human.

You seem to be trying to interpret a monist conception of the human body with the same definitions you already have within your substance dualist conception. If this is so, you will never see what we are saying, let alone agree with a monist. That is like trying to mix oil and water. I'm not trying to convince you that a monist conception of flesh is right. I am now primarily only seeking to show you that it is not defined through your paradigm. And then that you'll stop approaching this subject as if this is all wild and crazy stuff found anywhere but within the Scriptures. Of course I think the idea of the person within the person is nonsense and wish you didn't believe such a thing, but I'll settle for a concession that this stuff can actually be found in the Scriptures if one connected the dots differently than you. It seems only after this will our discussion of who is connecting those dots correctly be of any use.

Technically the spirit is saved from all this, but the flesh is not. The flesh will die under the penalty of sin. And until we loose this body we will suffer in it,

Brother, that is not at all what Paul encouraged us with. It is not in losing this body that will end the suffering in it, but rather by the redemption of our body, (Romans 8) when the sons of God are revealed and he shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body (Phillipians 3:21). So yes, our flesh will be saved, and we will behold the King of Glory with glorified eyes of flesh.

Grace and peace to you John.

[Paidion]

Jesus Himself emphasized the resurrection—not a disembodied spirit which is loosed from the body, and goes to heaven. In John 6 it is recorded that Jesus said 3 times "I will raise him up at the last day." That is at the last day, He will raise up "Those who trust in Him", "Those whom the Father draws to Himself", and "Those who feed upon Christ".

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have lasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has lasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Paul considered the resurrection of such importance that he wrote:

What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? if the dead are not raised, "let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."(1 Corinthians 15:32)

Paul here seems to indicate that if the dead are not raised, there is nothing more. We eventually die, and so we might as well enjoy ourselves with food and drink while we are still here.
Indeed he says in the same chapter:

If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied. (1 Corinthians 15:19)

[dseusy]

Paidion wrote,

I had in mind those who think they can be saved from hell simply by "receiving God's grace by faith" (by which they mean receiving "the free gift of salvation" from hell without relating this grace at all to living righteously).

I don't fall in either of these camps... I receive a free gift of salvation exactly because of the requirement to live righteously. Have you tried to carry this out? The requirement of the law is righteousness as described by the law. Please remember- while we act (in our human tradition) like the O.T. law has no dominion over us, we ignore Jesus' words concerning the law...

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matthew 5:18

"And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail." Luke 16:17

Paidion, I urge you to consider your ways and compare them to God's laws, even if just in the New Testament. How is living righteously working for you? You preach it to the rest of us, but are you carrying it out yourself? I don't ask this as an attack. I ask it for you to fear God and grow in wisdom. Jesus' harshest rebukes were to the pharisees for holding righteous living over the heads of the Israelites, but they weren't living it themselves. That's why Jesus told his followers to do what they say, but not to do what they do.

As for me, I am a broken man with a contrite spirit. I need a Savior to save me from my sinful condition... not because I look like a sinner by the world's standards, but because I see how wicked I am by God's standards. Without a free gift I have no hope.

[dseusy]

Jeremiah wrote,
...much of the time when we offer praise, thanksgiving, or requests to God, we do so with our lips. Is this unprofitable? Clothes that cover the naked and food given to the destitute are sewn and grown by human hands. Are these unprofitable? Or what about Genesis 2:24, Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. Is this joining also unprofitable? Or Genesis 2:7, And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Was God's gift of life to the first human a bad thing and also unprofitable? Am I arguing with the son of God himself? Not at all.

God judges our actions by the heart... not by what we see. A man can praise God with his lips and curse God in their hearts. Self righteous hypocrites do seemingly good deeds all the time... such as giving clothes and food to the destitute. The deed is good and the receiver may praise God as a result, but the giver is judged by God aside from the deed itself- it is the hidden motives that reveal our condition in God's righteous eyes. Don't take it from me...

"But the Lord said to Samuel, 'Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have refused him. For the Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.'" 1 Samuel 16:7

A man and a wife become one flesh... my wife and I are still separate flesh, so my understanding of this is children. But man is like grass... here one day and gone the next- like a vapor. This isn't lasting life. Flesh gives birth to flesh but Spirit gives birth to spirit... real life comes from being born again- spiritually.

Jeremiah wrote,
The flesh profits nothing to give life, for God made it to receive spirit and thereby be counted as alive.

That's not what the Word states... it states it profits nothing.

Jeremiah wrote,
I think a living, breathing human is what Paul has in mind when he tells us to "walk in the spirit", not a 'disembodied' ghost that hovers close enough to utilize the brain of the 'dead corpse' you seem to picture.

I believe walking in the Spirit is spiritual... because we know no amount of a living, breathing human walking around constitutes closeness to the Lord.

"I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:16-18

The flesh and the Spirit aren't partners as it seems you and Paidion suggest... they are contrary to one another. I do agree that the Spirit pours out its fruit through the flesh in keeping with the good works God has prepared in advance for us to do- but the flesh is wasting away. If we are led by the Spirit, we are free from the jurisdiction and condemnation resulting from our sin under God's good law.

Jeremiah wrote,
Of course I think the idea of the person within the person is nonsense and wish you didn't believe such a thing

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.” 1 Corinthians 15:50

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." Romans 8:9

Romans 7

"So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:8

"Jesus answered, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'’" John 3:5-7

Jeremiah wrote,
So yes, our flesh will be saved, and we will behold the King of Glory with glorified eyes of flesh.

“The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.” 1 Corinthians 15:42b-50 (emphasis mine)

[Paidion]

How is living righteously working for you? You preach it to the rest of us, but are you carrying it out yourself?

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? it is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the master is able to make him stand. (Romans 14:4)

[jriccitelli]

Duesey is not judging anyone Paidion, we are 'all' guilty - there is none righteous, no not one - that is why we need saving. But it is by His Spirit, and not by our effort, for by works shall no man be justified.

This is the point - God 'has' judged us - guilty. And the penalty is death, the flesh cannot please God, so we must be born from above. We are not embryos, we 'are' children of God by faith by believing in Him who saved us, died in our place, and raised Himself from the grave. We cannot raise ourselves from the grave. We are raised with Him, and by Him, to a new life 'in' Him. Looking forward to the new body when He comes, or after we bury this body, which ever comes first (Jeremiah, millions before us have died and their bodies are no more. I do not expect to have this body much longer, but the deeds we do in the body are ours to keep with our spirit, as we go on we will be judged on, or rewarded, to what we do in our body - so we do not receive His grace in vain, but our works 'reveal the sincerity' of our trust and faith)
It seems you think we do not teach 'a man must continue in good works', or that we would doubt Jesus meant "unless you abide in me you can do nothing" that's the point we are making, unless you are in His Body we can do nothing. We leave our flesh behind through death, we enter His body by faith (both signified by baptism), and born anew all over. Not from the earth, but from God above (you over looked Nicodemus answer: how can a man enter his 'mothers womb' again)
Paul refuted the accusations already: Shall we sin so that grace may increase? God forbid...

[jeremiah]

Duesey is not judging anyone Paidion, we are 'all' guilty - there is none righteous, no not one - that is why we need saving. But it is by His Spirit, and not by our effort, for by works shall no man be justified.

This is the point - God 'has' judged us - guilty. And the penalty is death, the flesh cannot please God, so we must be born from above. We are not embryos, we 'are' children of God by faith by believing in Him who saved us, died in our place, and raised Himself from the grave. We cannot raise ourselves from the grave. We are raised with Him, and by Him, to a new life 'in' Him. Looking forward to the new body when He comes, or after we bury this body, which ever comes first (Jeremiah, millions before us have died and their bodies are no more. I do not expect to have this body much longer, but the deeds we do in the body are ours to keep with our spirit, as we go on we will be judged on, or rewarded, to what we do in our body - so we do not receive His grace in vain, but our works 'reveal the sincerity' of our trust and faith)
It seems you think we do not teach 'a man must continue in good works', or that we would doubt Jesus meant "unless you abide in me you can do nothing" that's the point we are making, unless you are in His Body we can do nothing. We leave our flesh behind through death, we enter His body by faith (both signified by baptism), and born anew all over. Not from the earth, but from God above (you over looked Nicodemus answer: how can a man enter his mothers womb' again)
Paul refuted the accusations already: Shall we sin so that grace may increase? God forbid...

Yes, yes...of course, maybe...yes, ok... wait what! This is getting redundant.

"round and round the mulberry bush the monkey chased the weasel...
where they stop nobody knows..."

I think we're starting (or may have been for a while, i don't know) to talk past each other again. So until next time...I love y'all.

Grace and peace to you,
jeremiah

[dseusy]

Paidion,

I really was asking a question... do you live it to the letter? This was to spur self reflection. If I was to judge you I would condemn myself.

[Jepne]

“I really was asking a question... do you live it to the letter?”

Does he live what 'to the letter'?

Was Jesus performing dead works from self-effort when He was anointed with the holy spirit and with power and went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil? (Acts 10:37&38)

Just like Jesus did whatever the Father told Him, we will do - as we abide in the vine which is Christ Himself. The fruit of His Life in us is good works. It cannot be bad works. A well-watered and nourished tree bears fruit unselfconsciously – it cannot help it.

Are you feeding on Christ and bearing fruit, or feeding on the world and bearing that fruit? When Christ is alive in you, out of your belly will flow rivers of living water – you cannot turn it on or off.

When a man is 'in Christ', he is a new creature, and the life he lives comes from that Life; it is never from himself.

So, let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

[Paidion]

I really was asking a question... do you live it to the letter?

WHY do you really want to know whether or not I have achieved perfection? If I affirm that I fall short, does that mean I am consigned to eternal hell simply because I believe Christ died for the purpose of delivering us from sin, rather than the Protestant and Fundamentalist idea that He died to cover our sin so that God cannot see it, and therefore accept us AS IF we were righteous?

It seems to me that you don't understand salvation as a process which continues throughout this life and will be completed at the coming of Christ.

Jesus said that "the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:14 RSV)

I believe I must stay on that difficult road which leads to life. This is not an easy road, not an easy undertaking. The grace of God enables me; I could never succeed independently.

I have never claimed to have achieved perfection, but I have claimed that I WILL be perfect when God completes His work in me (with my coöperation, of course)

I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 RSV)

Even that great servant of Christ, the apostle Paul, indicated that he was not yet perfect, but that he strived to make it his own, since Christ has made him His own! I think the passage which Paul wrote concerning that, is my favourite part of the New Testament other than those parts which record Christ's life and teachings:

I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:8-14)

Paul states that when we are obedient slaves of Christ, we follow a road which LEADS to righteousness.

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom 6:16)

I am endeavouring, yes struggling at times, to serve Christ with all of my heart. Yet, I trust that I may stay on the road to righteousness, while He who began a good work in me continues to work in me as I receive His enabling grace to complete the journey, in order that that righteousness may be perfected in me when Christ returns.

The main point is that we must possess the hope of righteousness and pursue it with all of our hearts while being assisted by God's grace through His indwelling spirit.

I have a deep concern for those who think that righteousness is unnecessary in order to qualify for the resurrection (or for heaven), and that as long as they have said "the sinner's prayer" at some point in their lives, they are eternally secure. I fully understand the thinking. I was there from my teen years until I was about 25, at which time I began to understand the truth concerning God's salvation as a process culminating in the complete elimation of wrongdoing in our lives so that we will be qualified to enjoy the eternal abode with the Father and the Son, and the multitude of saints who have faithfully followed Him in this life, as well as all others as they learn to submit to the authority of Christ and are reconciled to Him.