We are saved from WHAT?

[dseusy]

Jepne wrote,
Does he live what 'to the letter'?

Righteousness.

I think I understand where you are coming from and I respect your point. Jesus wasn't performing dead works, He was performing good works. However, men will find themselves before the judgement seat saying how they performed good deeds and cast out demons, and God will say, "I never knew you"... so to me, it seems that the motive is more important than the work. Jesus' motives were pure because He was without sin... He was never guilty of lawlessness or pride before God.

I agree with you that the fruit of the Spirit is good stuff and cannot be bad works. But when I compare myself to God's goodness and His fruit as described in Galatians, I find bad works and bad motives. Not all the time. But it certainly exists. So, I want to be sincere and real about my righteousness. The reality is that it sucks and God doesn't cause my body to bear fruit always. I perform the good deeds in this life God has prepared in advance for me to do, but when I look at my flesh the old is still here. I use to think that I must not be a new creation yet because all things didn't appear new. However, what God has encouraged me with is Hebrews 4:12, that His Word divides between flesh and spirit and Romans- where when I do the things I hate, but I still agree that the law is good, it is no longer me sinning, but sin living in this wretched man that I am. Yet, hope remains in that my life is hidden in Christ and I have been born again and truly am a spiritually new creation.

Paidion currently believes in the

complete elimation of wrongdoing in our lives so that we will be qualified

and by submitting to Christ's authority, be reconciled to God. I submitted to Christ's authority and tried to eliminate the wrongdoing in my life but here is what I discovered (and I don't intend to rush this on anyone else, but I do believe in proclaming the only Gospel that offers true hope as we can accept it)... I need a Savior BECAUSE of my inability to rid myself of wrongdoing... the fear of the Lord led me to submit to Him and His good ways and commands, but wisdom only started here. I was never reconciled to God through becoming completely lawful or totally righteous by my works... I was reconciled to God by Christ's death on my behalf and gifted righteousness by faith apart from works.

"And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin." 1 John 3:3-5

It is this faith and hope that makes me pure as Him (that I only recognize after a life lived in fervent and failed obedience, but real submission to Christ's righteousness). He took away my sin... I didn't overcome it by ridding myself of wrongdoing- Whoever says he is without sin is a liar and deceives himself (1 John 1:8-10).

God will accomplish in my life what He intends to, but it is no longer a burden on my back- though I crave His fruit and am pained by the sin that reminds me I am broken, prideful, and needy... well, I guess I need the reminder.

[dseusy]

Paidion wrote,
WHY do you really want to know whether or not I have achieved perfection?

I already know you haven't (I don't mean this pridefully or with any knowledge of your life... just what scripture says about our earthly condition under God's law).

I wanted you to know. You connect our salvation to our Christ-enabled obedience, so I ask, how is your obedience going?

What is the assurance of your salvation? It makes me shudder when I connect salvation to my performance. God's law sheds almighty light on all the nooks and crannies of my deep "undercover" motives. I only have peace in knowing my salvation is purely dependent on God's goodness and mercy, rather than my sacrifices. He desires mercy, not sacrifice.

Paidion wrote,
I have claimed that I WILL be perfect when God completes His work in me

I agree. I believe we are credited perfection... it is accounted to us by faith.

Paidion wrote,
I have a deep concern for those who think that righteousness is unnecessary

Me too. I believe it is totally necessary, and it comes as a gift from Christ and it is more righteous than I could ever be without Him handing it to me, freely... unreserved, and undeserved. This is the kind of love that makes me excited to be with Him.

[Paidion]

I believe it [righteousness] is totally necessary, and it comes as a gift from Christ and it is more righteous than I could ever be without Him handing it to me, freely... unreserved, and undeserved.

How can righteousness be handed to you? Righteousness is a quality of a person. Christ can graciously enable YOU to be righteous, but He doesn't "hand it to you" like someone would hand you a plate of turkey when you are dining. We read that God will reward us in the next life. Why would He reward us if we did nothing?

We read in 1 Corinthians 3:14 "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward."
Clearly the man will be rewarded for his work, not for a righteousness which is handed to him.

Paul wrote in Romans 2, how God renders to EVERYONE according to his works.

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, but glory and honour and well-being for
every one who does good... for God shows no partiality.

Notice it is those who persevere in WELL-DOING and who seek for glory and honour and immortality from God who will be given eternal life. Not those who receive the gift of righteousness.
"Affliction and anguish for every person who DOES EVIl." Not "affliction and anguish for every person who refuses the gift of righteousness."

No. God will render to every person according to his works. GOD SHOWS NO PARTIALITY!

[dseusy]

Paidion,

I don't believe the mystery of Christ or the word of righteousness can be reasoned through... I think it must be worked through.

"For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
Hebrews 5:13-14 (emphasis mine)

Therefore, I concede that righteousness comes by works combined with faith.

"But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does." James 1:25

"Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?" James 2:22

Only... I encourage you not to dilute the standard of righteousness or excuse yourself from the penalty of sin.

Remember these and put them into practice:

"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:27

"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you" Matthew 5:44

"Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

[dseusy]

Paidion,

As you work through this, consider whether you are like the tax collector who beat his breast and cried out for mercy, or like one who claims, "I do what is right".

The world says the latter is justified. Jesus said the former is (Luke 18:14).

[jeremiah]

Good morning Dseusy,

you said:

I don't believe the mystery of Christ or the word of righteousness can be reasoned through... I think it must be worked through.

Why?

(you quote Hebrews 5:13-14, then..)Therefore, I concede that righteousness comes by works combined with faith.

Why? Because of Heb 5:13-14? How?

Only... I encourage you not to dilute the standard of righteousness or excuse yourself from the penalty of sin.

How is any excuse or dilution being made here?

Remember these and put them into practice:

How does one put them into practice?

To hear, the mystery of Christ or the word of righteousness cannot be reasoned through sounds nonsensical. For as Heb 5 said, our senses (there's that nasty old flesh again ) are exercised to discern both good and evil. How does a man discern anything without employing reason?

As you work through this, consider whether you are like the tax collector who beat his breast and cried out for mercy, or like one who claims, "I do what is right".
The world says the latter is justified. Jesus said the former is (Luke 18:14).

Do you think this is a reasonable conclusion of what we've been trying to communicate in this thread? Why? It's already been reassured multiple times that we all are dependent upon God's great mercy. Why do you still continue to presume otherwise?

Since this is in text, and it's all too easy to mistake tone here, please be assured this is meant simply as a challenge in good spirit to what looks to me a contradictory statement in the first quote. None of my questions are meant to be hostile taunts.

That his grace and peace would flood all of us, jeremiah

[jriccitelli]

Paidion, Scripture says the faithful 'believer' will have fruit (works), and that this work will be rewarded and judged. Bad works burned up, and good works rewarded, that's it. None of the fruit 'makes' us righteous, only Christ can do that. It says after all: ‘we’ are Gods fruits (no offense), and it says we are ‘His’ works. It says: 'our work is to believe', we are made 'perfect by faith'. And it says: we are covered by His robes, and His righteousness:

‘I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.’ (Isaiah 61:10)

[Paidion]

Paidion, Scripture says the faithful 'believer' will have fruit (works), and that this work will be rewarded and judged. Bad works burned up, and good works rewarded, that's it. None of the fruit 'makes' us righteous, only Christ can do that. It says after all: ‘we’ are Gods fruits (no offense), and it says we are ‘His’ works. It says: 'our work is to believe', we are made 'perfect by faith'.

Why are you saying this, JR? Have I or anyone else claimed otherwise?

And it says: we are covered by His robes, and His righteousness:

Where does it say that?

[dseusy]

Jeremiah,

I believe the mystery of Christ must be worked through because of what scripture states and because of my personal experience.

I agree that it sounds nonsensical, but it works itself out the more one USES solid food... then I believe it makes more sense- similar to how Proverbs 3:5 encourages us to not lean on our own understanding but to trust in the Lord with all our heart... so we don’t stop reasoning- we just don’t lean on it.

“But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” Hebrews 5:14

Notice the senses are exercised by USE before good and evil are discerned... before USE they are not discerned even though we try to and think we can. Before USE, we get things mixed up.

Jeremiah wrote,
How does a man discern anything without employing reason?

Excellent question... we use reason to discern all the time. The difference between having our senses exercised or not is the difference between discerning according to man’s ways or increasingly God’s ways. Men discern all around us, but are they leaning on God’s reason and trusting Him? If their senses haven’t been exercised, their discernment of good and evil will likely be skewed.

This all is built on a foundation of man’s reason being significantly different than God’s reason:

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?" Romans 11:33, 34

So, God’s judgements are unsearchable. His discernment is beyond us. We cannot use our reason (apart from USE and God's enabling) to understand Him. But, He promises it to us by asking while believing and using solid food. (James 1, Hebrews 5)

God told Jeremiah (coincidence?):
“Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.” Jeremiah 33:3

Jeremiah wrote,
How is any excuse or dilution being made here?

A dilution, leading to excuse, is being made unconsciously. I believe this is revealed and discovered (or made aware to the senses or human reason) by USE.

Jeremiah wrote,
How does one put them into practice?

Keep them, observe them, apply them, do them

Jeremiah wrote,
Do you think this is a reasonable conclusion of what we've been trying to communicate in this thread?

Yes.

Why?

Instead of me trying to explain why, I recommend USE. I’m learning through the previously cited scriptures and this experience that the USE of solid food works better than my ramblings.

Jeremiah wrote,
Since this is in text, and it's all too easy to mistake tone here, please be assured this is meant simply as a challenge in good spirit to what looks to me a contradictory statement in the first quote. None of my questions are meant to be hostile taunts.

I appreciate you communicating this because, I agree, it is easy to misinterpret tone without audible tone and nonverbals. I hope my responses come with gentleness and grace. There is plenty I don't know about why God does things... I hope I don't come across like I "get" him, because I don't- I just partially get one simple concept of the Good News, namely Christ, but He is incredible.

[Paidion]

This all is built on a foundation of man’s reason being significantly different than God’s reason:

There is not one logic which God uses, and a different one which man employs. Logic is logic. Do you suppose that God might arrive at a different result of adding two plus two than the result at which man arrives?
Might "God's logic" result in the sum equalling 5?

We human beings have been created in God's image, and thus, unlike wood ticks or turtles, we are able to reason, and have the ability to choose freely.

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9

This is not a reference to God having a different logic from that of man. We need to examine the context to see what it DOES mean:

“Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call upon him while he is near;
let the wicked forsake his way,
and the unrighteous man his thoughts;
let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him,
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:6-9 ESV)

It's all about the wicked who should repent and forsake their ways and their unrighteous thoughts, and return to Yahweh, who will have compassion, and pardon them.
God does not have unrighteous thoughts; thus His thoughts are not those of the unrighteous.
Neither are the wicked's evil ways the same as the righteous ways of Yahweh.
God's righteous ways and holy thoughts are as far above wicked people's sinful ways and unrighteous thoughts as the heavens are higher than the earth.