Technological Singularity

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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jeremiah
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Re: Technological Singularity

Post by jeremiah » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:19 pm

Hello Doug,
I haven't been able to find any grounds for the idea that the New Heavens and New Earth is completely free of death, sin, and rebellion, so I disagree with this formulation. But that's for another discussion.
:) Fair enough man.
As far as the intermediate state goes, what's your take on going to heaven and the definition of physical death?
I don't think there is an intermediate state. This concept would be necessary if the constitution of humans was such that the body was separate from the soul or the spirit and that one or both of the latter were the aspect of a human by which person-hood emerges or identity is counted. I believe the scriptures would point us to a constitution which is neither dichotomist nor trichotomist, but a whole thing. So when the soul, or the person, stops breathing spirit, they are dead. Upon this death, the person ceases to exist, until the last day when they are raised again by God( who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.) I think what we read in John 3:13 is just as true today as it was Jesus said it (and John who I think commented with "which is in heaven.")

Grace and peace to you.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

dwilkins
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Re: Technological Singularity

Post by dwilkins » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:29 pm

jeremiah wrote: I don't think there is an intermediate state. This concept would be necessary if the constitution of humans was such that the body was separate from the soul or the spirit and that one or both of the latter were the aspect of a human by which person-hood emerges or identity is counted. I believe the scriptures would point us to a constitution which is neither dichotomist nor trichotomist, but a whole thing. So when the soul, or the person, stops breathing spirit, they are dead. Upon this death, the person ceases to exist, until the last day when they are raised again by God( who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.) I think what we read in John 3:13 is just as true today as it was Jesus said it (and John who I think commented with "which is in heaven.")

Grace and peace to you.
According to Revelation 6 (which according to all of the eschatology I can think of is before the parousia and therefore resurrection) there are souls in heaven crying out to God for vengeance:

Revelation 6:9-11 (ESV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

How do you account for this?

Doug

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jeremiah
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Re: Technological Singularity

Post by jeremiah » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:16 pm

According to Revelation 6 (which according to all of the eschatology I can think of is before the parousia and therefore resurrection) there are souls in heaven crying out to God for vengeance:

Revelation 6:9-11 (ESV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

How do you account for this?
This phrase "souls of" I actually consider evidence that John is continuing the same usage as the OT, one that in such a context is just a hebraism for " I saw...the people that had been slain..." Just as in Genesis 46 where the amount of people that came with Jacob to Egypt is recorded, saying, "...all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten." Revelation 18:13 has "souls of men" in a cargo list, clearly demonstrating, I think, this phrase as Jewish way of describing people.

I don't think John saw ghosts under the altar(nor in the ship of ch.18), I think he saw people. The fact that he saw them at all is fine, I believe John was given an apocalyptic vision by God, he was never actually in heaven. So neither did actual people or even disembodied souls have to be present in heaven for the vision to accomplish God's intentions for it.

Peace be with you man.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

dwilkins
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Re: Technological Singularity

Post by dwilkins » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:35 pm

jeremiah wrote:
According to Revelation 6 (which according to all of the eschatology I can think of is before the parousia and therefore resurrection) there are souls in heaven crying out to God for vengeance:

Revelation 6:9-11 (ESV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

How do you account for this?
This phrase "souls of" I actually consider evidence that John is continuing the same usage as the OT, one that in such a context is just a hebraism for " I saw...the people that had been slain..." Just as in Genesis 46 where the amount of people that came with Jacob to Egypt is recorded, saying, "...all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten." Revelation 18:13 has "souls of men" in a cargo list, clearly demonstrating, I think, this phrase as Jewish way of describing people.

I don't think John saw ghosts under the altar(nor in the ship of ch.18), I think he saw people. The fact that he saw them at all is fine, I believe John was given an apocalyptic vision by God, he was never actually in heaven. So neither did actual people or even disembodied souls have to be present in heaven for the vision to accomplish God's intentions for it.

Peace be with you man.
I think I'm tracking with your point. However, Hellenistic Judaism had souls of men in Hades (though the Abrahamic compartment) in the intermediate state. And, the majority of the Patristics (a minority followed the Hellenistic Jews) considered the martyrs (and most of them the rest of the believers as well) of the church age to be in heaven awaiting the resurrection. What is the Christian tradition that embraces complete death?

Doug

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jeremiah
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Re: Technological Singularity

Post by jeremiah » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:51 am

... , Hellenistic Judaism had souls of men in Hades (though the Abrahamic compartment) in the intermediate state. And, the majority of the Patristics (a minority followed the Hellenistic Jews) considered the martyrs (and most of them the rest of the believers as well) of the church age to be in heaven awaiting the resurrection. What is the Christian tradition that embraces complete death?
I'm perfectly comfortable with saying the souls of humans are in hades or sheol. That's biblical language. The question is, do we have exegetical reason to conclude the scriptures meant what the Hellenistic Jews meant by that?

If a majority of the early fathers thought that, do they give any reasons why they did? Can it be demonstrated they explicitly taught this, or did they just use biblical language? I'm not trying to deny they may have believed such a thing, I've just heard the fathers called down on quite a few sides of differing arguments. When their words are actually investigated, much of the time these words end up being a bit vague to be conclusive either way since they too used biblical verbiage much of the time.

Also, it would foolish of me to affirm it impossible to read the scriptures and conclude a disembodied heavenly existence for some time after death. But I think it can be shown that this is concluded because of a presumption that those writings are using 'spiritual' language the way we are accustomed to instead of being taught by them. It's the resurrection that is the redounding encouragement to the believer throughout the scriptures, so much that if humanity had the capacity for an alternate existence beyond death in heaven, then Paul's argument in 1 Cor 15:16-20 falls to nothing. Verse 19 would be especially nonsensical if Paul believed we went to heaven upon death to await that resurrection. What's to stop his detractors from simply retorting that, "any existence in the presence of God is desirable thank you very much." They would be right, if this was also part of Paul's thinking. I think rather that Paul's argument packs the most force if it is true that without the resurrection, we have no hope of conquering death.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

dwilkins
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Re: Technological Singularity

Post by dwilkins » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:07 pm

Jeremiah,

Yours are interesting questions, but I don't think the general approach you are taking reflects the positions of the parties we're talking about. If you are a reader, I highly suggest a book called "Regnum Caeloroum" by Charles Hill

http://www.amazon.com/Regnum-Caelorum-P ... rum+regnum

The author tracks chiliasm in the early church through their position on the intermediate state. It's one of the most important books I've read on the topic of early church eschatology. His basic point is that chiliasm (millennialism) was imported from Hellenistic Judaism and their view of the Hadean realm was tightly integrated with it. On the other hand, the majority of the church was not chiliast, and talked clearly about an intermediate state in heaven. There were certainly scriptures that each side used for their position, but I thought it was revealing that it's clear an intermediate state in heaven was the standard for most of the early church (and is now essentially universally accepted).

The one thing I wish he'd engaged is whether or not the fact that both sides had good evidence was an indication that there was some sort of transition between two legitimate positions. For instance, I suspect that the Hadean approach was valid until Christ, but after he "set the captives free" the intermediate state in heaven has been the paradigm since. This is a strong indirect argument against chiliasm without having to deny the reality of Hadean passages. This position becomes even easier to propose if Gehenna and Hades were used differently per the 70AD Gehenna interpretation.

Hill stipulated that everyone was still looking for a resurrection, but it is obvious as the survey continued that the non-chiliasts weren't as clear about the nature of it. The chiliasts were very clear about the "flesh and bone" body (they avoided the phrase "flesh and blood" because Paul explicitly said that flesh and blood weren't going to be part of the resurrection body) because without it there would be no way to experience the millennial kingdom of banquets and such on earth. On the other hand, Hill points out a very interesting concession by Irenaeus in which he stipulates that there were a number of orthodox Christians at the time who were teaching an invisible, heavenly resurrection. Irenaeus goes on to criticize Gnostics who said something similar, but caveated his criticism by saying that he wasn't trying to say that the Christians who believed in an invisible resurrection were unorthodox.

In the end, I suppose our disagreement might come down to our definitions of the Millennium and the New Heaven and New Earth. If you follow a chiliast approach coupled with the complete dissolution and repair of the physical creation then a physical body resurrection from Hades makes sense. I don't think that any of the elements of that formula are scriptural.

Doug

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Re: Technological Singularity

Post by jeremiah » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:23 pm

Hello Doug,
In the end, I suppose our disagreement might come down to our definitions of the Millennium and the New Heaven and New Earth. If you follow a chiliast approach coupled with the complete dissolution and repair of the physical creation then a physical body resurrection from Hades makes sense. I don't think that any of the elements of that formula are scriptural.
Why would you think I follow a chiliast approach to Rev 20? Also, are you using the "elements" of that formula in a figuratively spiritual sense, or otherwise? ;)

Peace to you Doug.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

dwilkins
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Re: Technological Singularity

Post by dwilkins » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:16 am

jeremiah wrote:Hello Doug,
In the end, I suppose our disagreement might come down to our definitions of the Millennium and the New Heaven and New Earth. If you follow a chiliast approach coupled with the complete dissolution and repair of the physical creation then a physical body resurrection from Hades makes sense. I don't think that any of the elements of that formula are scriptural.
Why would you think I follow a chiliast approach to Rev 20? Also, are you using the "elements" of that formula in a figuratively spiritual sense, or otherwise? ;)

Peace to you Doug.
As church doctrine evolved we ended up with chiliasts and non-chiliasts. The chiliasts used the Hadean formula for their intermediate state while the non-chiliasts had the intermediate state in heaven. The two ideas go together in each case. So, I assumed if you were a fan of the Hadean formula that you would also be a chiliast. Sorry if that assumption was wrong.

By elements I mean foundational components or concepts. I don't think the foundational concepts of chiliasm, the complete dissolution of the physical creation, or the resurrection of believers' "flesh and bone" bodies can be found in scripture.

Doug

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