Saints and sinners

morbo3000 · Post by **morbo3000** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:06 am

I have recently come across this phrase from a Lutheran pastor. That we are simultaneously 100% saints and 100% sinners. And also that none of us is on a ladder. We are not able to climb up any ladder of righteousness or spirituality or piety or goodness to reach God and attain some status of holiness or purity.

This all resonates with me. I think it communicates an enormous amount of humility and indebtedness to Jesus, while also acknowledging the work that He has done in us.

But this all gets murky theologically with some people.
- Some would say that we are no longer "sinners." We are saints who sin, but are saved by grace.
- Others would say that seeing the motion of God as always down to us, and never us climbing to him denies the role of the believer in growing in holiness.

I am more and more convinced that "theology matters," as I've been saying to people around me. What we believe about this stuff plays out in how we embody Jesus in our churches, and in our ministry in the world.

Help me out.. what do you all believe about this? Are we 100% saints and 100% sinners? Or some other math?

PR · Post by PR » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:40 am

Regarding your question, this scripture to mind:

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

Titus 2:11-14 (NIV)

PR

steve7150 · Post by **steve7150** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:14 am

. We are not able to climb up any ladder of righteousness or spirituality or piety or goodness to reach God and attain some status of holiness or purity.

Traditionally the word "sinner" has meant the unsaved so if it is used this way then the "believer" is not a sinner and is a saint. But clearly everyone sins and everyone does a certain amount of good. Even Hitler was good to his dog and Eva Braun.
We do climb a latter of righteousness not to reach God but to try to conform ourselves to the image of Jesus yet we also sin and repent but then sin again and again. It is a journey of sanctification (hopefully) and everyone is a work in progress for their whole lives therefore we are both saints and sinners.

Paidion · Post by **Paidion** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:18 am

A "sinner" is one who practises sin. According to John, such a person is not a Christian. Therefore Christians are not sinners.

Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed remains in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:7-10)

Homer · Post by **Homer** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:56 am

I'm with Paidion.

steve7150 · Post by **steve7150** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:54 am

I'm with Paidion.

I agree that Paidion made a good point. This feels weird but i'm with both Homer and Paidion.

Paidion · Post by **Paidion** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:28 pm

That means I'm with Homer and Steve7150.

By the way, in John 1:1, "the Word was with God". I think the word translated "with" means "with" in exactly the same way we are now using it. It is the word προς (pros) whose primary meaning is "toward".

Singalphile · Post by **Singalphile** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:05 pm

morbo3000 wrote:I am more and more convinced that "theology matters," as I've been saying to people around me. What we believe about this stuff plays out in how we embody Jesus in our churches, and in our ministry in the world.

Funny. Lately, I've been more convinced that theology doesn't matter so much, if by "theology" we mean what people usually mean by it.

darinhouston · Post by **darinhouston** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:36 am

I'm with the HPS triad

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steve7150 · Post by **steve7150** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:31 pm

I'm with the HPS triad

Now it's HPSD. Sounds like a disease?

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