The next step

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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steve
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Re: The next step

Post by steve » Fri May 23, 2014 12:20 pm

Paidion wrote:
Hmmmm... I wonder why He didn't wipe out Oholah and Oholibah (metaphorically Samaria and Jerusalem) who also sacrificed their children to idols.
Didn't you know? He did wipe them out.

Homer wrote:
So you admit that universalism is "outside of revealed scripture", given the necessity of repentance in any system of reconciliation with God. Although more than once I have thought you had become a convinced universalist, you maintain you can not decide because you say there is not enough scripture to base your decision on.
Wow! My statement about this really surprised you? Have you not heard me every time I mention my view—namely, that I don't believe any of the three views has the scriptural proof to overthrow its competitors. I have said consistently, from my very first comment of the subject, that the Bible does not affirm or deny postmortem repentance. Can you really have read the scores of posts I have addressed to you and failed to know my position on this? Where have you been in our discussion?

To say that postmortem repentance is "outside scripture" (or, "extra-biblical") is not any argument against it. The scripture is silent on this specific matter. Both the affirmation and the denial of postmortem repentance are "outside scripture." Yet one of the positions must necessarily be true. There are many specific questions about which scripture is silent. However, those who take a position on one side or the other of such issues do so because they believe other clearly-taught doctrines in scripture require the conclusion on the points not mentioned. This is a reasonable approach to theology and scriptural studies.
Given your statement above, I can not understand why you defend the universalist viewpoint with such zeal. If you are being candid about your position, it would seem that you would equally attack all dogmatic claims by universalists (there are many made) just as you do the traditional views.
I don't post a criticism of every unsupportable claim made by others in this forum. When I post, I am answering irrational criticisms made by one person about the views of another. I don't agree with every statement made by conditionalists or universalists here. I don't have to weigh in on every statement with which I disagree. I often cannot resist weighing in when someone (who ought to know better) continues to lambaste with vacuous arguments the position held by another. The reason I have more often defended universalism than conditionalism is very simple: conditionalists constantly make absurd and unkind criticisms of universalists. I have not found the universalists to do the same to the conditionalists.

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Candlepower
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Re: The next step

Post by Candlepower » Sat May 24, 2014 12:24 am

Not only did God wipe out Jerusalem & Samaria (twice), he abolished Biblical Judaism.

Biblical Judaism's primary requirements include a Temple, Temple sacrifices, a Levitical Priesthood, circumcision, and Sabbath observance. Since AD 70, there has been no Temple, no Levitical Priesthood, and no animal sacrifices. According to Paul, circumcision means nothing to God. And Christians, under the New Covenant, are not required to observe the Sabbath. Paul declared that God's Old Covenant with the Jews was obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

That which calls itself Judaism today is a man-made delusion. God destroyed Jerusalem (twice) and abolished it as the capital city of His covenant people. He abolished His covenant with them and instituted a new Covenant with the believing remnant. Judaism has not existed for nearly two millennia.

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Paidion
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Re: The next step

Post by Paidion » Sat May 24, 2014 12:25 pm

I question whether the city of Jerusalem were ever utterly destroyed. The temple was destroyed twice, and the city was conquerered and occupied by 9 or 10 different people groups throughout history, but that is a little different from affirming that the city was destroyed. But even if the city were utterly destroyed, the Hebrew people were never exterminated as were the Canaanites.

The Canaanite people were utterly wiped out, supposedly at God's request. Steve said that was God avenging their sacrificing of live babies to Molech. But I indicated that the Hebrews sacrificed children also but God didn't wipe out the Hebrews, neither the people of Israel (Samaria) nor the people of Judah (Jerusalem). The Jewish people remain to this day—and even a small group of Samaritans. God did not "wipe them out" as He supposedly did the Canaanite people by commanding the Israelites to utterly destroy them. So if God must not have exterminated the Canaanites in order to avenge the sacrificing of children, or He surely would have been consistent enough to exterminate the Hebrews for the same reason.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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steve
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Re: The next step

Post by steve » Sat May 24, 2014 10:02 pm

Actually, all the Canaanites were never exterminated. Those who embraced Yahweh (like Rahab), and those who made peace with Israel (like the Gibeonites) were spared. The same is true of the Jews, when Jerusalem was destroyed (Jesus told them their city, not just the temple, would be destroyed—Luke 19:40-44). The faithful remnant survived. God has always made a distinction between those who embraced Him and those who defied Him—whether Canaanite or Jew. There is no distinction between races when it comes to God's acceptance of persons.

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Paidion
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Re: The next step

Post by Paidion » Sun May 25, 2014 2:23 pm

Thank you, Steve, for pointing out Luke 19:40-44 to me. I don't know how I missed seeing that in my past readings of Luke.

And yes, just because God told the Israelites to utterly destroy the Canaanites, doesn't mean that they succeeded.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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