Wesleyan view of sinful nature?

[psimmond]

I'm using "inclined" to denote "a greater desire." So the spiritually mature will have a greater desire to please God than to satisfy their fleshly desires. (They would be inclined toward righteousness.)

But I work for a Christian organization that screens candidates and I've found that many believers who are young in the faith really struggle with making godly choices and many of them experience a great deal of shame and guilt. (There were times when I felt this same way.) This got me wondering if many Christians do in fact start out with flesh that is stronger than spirit (concupiscence) as a result of factors you mentioned--# of years spent sinning, the deepness of ones sin, the post-conversion environment, etc.

If it's true that many who are young in the faith are not (yet) inclined toward righteousness but are in fact inclined toward sin, a doctrine that says all believers are inclined toward righteousness (or at the least morally neutral) could certainly cause them to question their faith and God's promises.

[mattrose]

I'd say all Christians have a desire to please Christ. One might go so far as to suggest that as a definition of Christianity.

If someone professes a desire to please God.... that they struggle against sin and experience shame and guilt when they fall into it is a sign that they are telling the truth.

If they confess their sins (no matter how many/often), God will be faithful to not only forgive but also use their repentance as a means of sanctification. To my mind, one's status as a Christian is less about where they are on a spectrum of righteousness... but what direction they are moving in.

[psimmond]

My question and subsequent studies seems to boil down to what the apostle Paul meant when he said our old man/self is dead, having been crucified with Christ. I know some view this as a supernatural occurrence that happens in every believer at the time of regeneration and some view it figuratively, i.e. we should reckon the old man/self as dead and not allow our fleshly desires to reign.

I used to be one of those who viewed this as a supernatural happening, but it seems to make more sense to say Paul is telling us how we ought to view (or reckon) our old man/self. And I think that as believers starve their sinful desires by refusing to gratify them, the "flesh" grows weaker as the spirit grows stronger.

[mattrose]

My question and subsequent studies seems to boil down to what the apostle Paul meant when he said our old man/self is dead, having been crucified with Christ. I know some view this as a supernatural occurrence that happens in every believer at the time of regeneration and some view it figuratively, i.e. we should reckon the old man/self as dead and not allow our fleshly desires to reign.

I used to be one of those who viewed this as a supernatural happening, but it seems to make more sense to say Paul is telling us how we ought to view (or reckon) our old man/self. And I think that as believers starve their sinful desires by refusing to gratify them, the "flesh" grows weaker as the spirit grows stronger.

I would agree with you. The former view seems to view the sarx almost like an organ that God removes like a surgeon would. But sarx is not an organ that previously made up part of our body. If anything, it is our body itself.... but our body without submission to the Spirit. The way to righteousness is not the removal of sarx, but the Spirit's authority over sarx.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[psimmond]

Romans 6:6 is one of the key verses, but Eph 4:22 also talks about the "old man" and it says that believers are to take off the old man and put on the new man.